Notes from the joint CHC/ Cymorth Cymru Supported Housing Services Forum

Held on 15.07.15 at the Media Resource Centre, Llandrindod Wells.

Present:

Phil Richardson – Cadwyn (Joint Chair)

Auriol Miller –Cymorth (Joint Chair)

Hugh Russell - CHC

Gaynor jones – Castell Care and Support (Wales & West)

Hugh Irwin – United Welsh

Shelagh Iles – Rhondda Housing Association

Angela Stacey – RCT Homes

Jill Nicholson – Cartrefi Cymru

Neil Binnell – Monmouthshire Housing Association

Kath Moore – Gwalia

Alan Trask – Gwalia

Frances Beecher – Llamau

Ceri Meloy – Dimensions Cymru

Liz Slade – SYSHP

Richard Lucas – the Care Society

Elen Jenkins – Tai Ceredigion

Elwen Roberts - DGDAS

Ruth Hazell – Carmarthen Domestic Abuse Services

Rachel Rees – Tai Calon

Amanda Anstee – Rhondda Housing Association

Audrey Broome – Rhondda Housing Association

Richard Sheahan – Linc

Louise Webster – Cantref

Fiona Jenkins - Hafan Cymru

Nigel Bowen – First Choice Housing Association

Aidan Ackerman – Mid Wales Housing Association

Angela Lee – Gwent RCC (RDC)

Jayne Pettifer – Coastal Housing

Melanie Lott – Derwen Cymru

Michelle Brown – Charter Housing

Apologies

Chris Rutson – United Welsh

Mark Sheridan – Taff

Dave Tovey – Coastal

Sue Preece – Cwm Taf RDC

Cara Lynam – NW RDC

Sam Williams – Western Bay RDC

Kay Helyar – Charter Housing

Presentation from Kerry Bailey – Interim SPNAB Chair

  • Background – independent member of SPNAB – GP, then a consultant in public health. Interested in impacts on public health, housing, societal causes. Trained in statistics, epidemiology, etc.
  • Are we doing what we hoped we would – what impact are we having?
  • RCCs are developing differently…an iterative process.
  • 2 new independent members for SPNAB to be recruited in Autumn.
  • Collaborative approach is key.
  • Areas for improvement = Outcomes – crucial. One of our biggest challenges.

-Combination – could do better collaborating with other key areas (Communities 1st, etc.)

-Need to have process measures/ outputs in place

-Agree on what’s appropriate for your sector

-Measure what is relevant for individuals and aggregate

-Keep stats on variety of areas and use them appropriately as the political wind blows in different directions.

-Link to impact to what’s important

-SAIL system – using data from health, social services, SP, etc.

  • We must prove that SP is saving health, social services… etc. money
  • KB works with a predictive analytics company in the private sector. Need to introduce that to our sector.
  • RS: National Outcomes Databank is absolutely necessary
  • KB: This is even easier now! Intraoperability is entirely possible now.
  • What could SPNAB do better?
  • Governance – we need to strengthen this. RCCs differ – some good examples of governance – but agreed this is a priority area.
  • An independent member of SPNAB up north would be really helpful – to be discussed by Cymorth and CHC
  • SPNAB attendance at RCCs is very important – currently only Katy from SPIN on SPNAB up North
  • What’s the commitment for SPNAB reps? Officially 1 day a month, plus a quarterly meeting, plus dev days. Kerry is currently doing one day a week.

CHC Update

Elections

•Governance Group

•RCC reps

Both taking place over the Summer.

Yammer

•CHC overhaul of Yammer – all CHC members should have been invited to join. Let me know if you have not!

•I’ve set up a Supported Housing Services Forum group within that to discuss relevant issues – I know many have joined but please feel free to get stuck in with ideas and conversation!

Campaign Update

Phase one (general awareness) has gone well and is ongoing

Phase two could be described as budget pressure for public/key stakeholders (needs to be done soon, in time for September)

Phase three (manifesto / Assembly campaign).

•Successful Event at the Senedd – thanks to those who were involved.

•Evidence collection (briefing). We’re at 11 out of 37 responses. Used to inform arguments against further cuts. Another point to make is that the responses have shown a real mix of impact; some have been hit hard (e.g. personal alarm costs now being transferred to the tenant) some have not really felt it, as it’s only a small part of the business, and a few have talked about making efficiency savings to cope so that service users aren’t affected.

•Change in tack (positive spin – national outcomes database)

•Eisteddfod – CHC are hosting a debate in August for representatives from each of the main parties. SP is one of the areas we’ll be looking to quiz them on.

•The AM visits are going well. Up to around 12. Keep them up! It’s entirely possible that they’ll show up during summer recess. My colleague who handles political monitoring for CHC assures me that only in very few cases will they be taking all of their 2 month break as holiday. Has anyone had a project visit they want to update on?

Cymorth Update

  • Report from CELG on Rented Homes – CC have submitted additional evidence on temp licenses.
  • Prisoner Pathway consultation – CC Responding
  • Chris R and AM getting together with Nina from TPAS – to talk about service user facing events, etc. DWP Strategic Partnership Group
  • Scotland invited ‘head of sanctions’ – AM would like to do this in Wales – email will go out to ask for specific queries - hopefully in next 6 months.
  • Oxfam Cymru - doing some work on lived experiences of sanctions, in conjunction with key members of DWP staff.
  • Cymorth Board meeting to look at Manifesto for next year.
  • Cymorth open to hosting Vale and Cardiff provider forum – AM also interested in establishing a YP Leaving Care interest group.
  • 2 x 2.5 hour briefing sessions on care in September
  • Homelessness symposium on 14.10.15 likely in Cardiff
  • Rejigging their work with Public Health Wales (how do we hold health to account?)
  • United in Improving Health in Wales – high level network (including CHC and CC) – early years is 1 focus, another is on prevention.
  • National Care Provider Forum – CC also has a seat at the table on the WG care home steering group AND a Social Enterprise steering group.
  • 2 new admin posts at CC (Ceri Evans - Finance and Systems; Vicky Heritage – Events, Training and organisation of Regional Provider Forums).
  • Care Provider Summit on 17.11.15.
  • Promoting Independence Awards forthcoming.
  • Summer Elections for Cymorth Board – 4 or 5 new members needed as well as 4 new independent members.

Welsh Government Update provided separately as no one was free to attend the forum

SPNAB Update

  • RCC Chairs and Vice Chairs attended with the minister and RDCs.
  • Minister will do what she can to protect the budget.
  • Strategic Vision and Values paper agreed with amends.
  • SU involvement – nothing new
  • Further events planned for November, December and January
  • Data feasibility survey underway
  • Final spec for qualitative research agreed.
  • Strategic Finance Group – nothing to add
  • Research and Evaluation Steering Group have met 6 times now. Providers, LAs, RDC, Kerry Bailey and Megan Martin from YMCA
  • 2 x pieces of work
  • Quant: data feasibility study – who holds what data about whom and at what level? In some Las this is the providers. Trying to prove with Sail whether someone who’s accessed SP has cost the health service less money? If not, why not?
  • Some LAs hold data (x 4) that can be used in the immediate future. What else do we need to do to pull data into the Sail database? Donna Lemin and AM are linchpins.
  • Quant data will be retrospective.
  • Need uniformity in councils.
  • Qual data – longitudinal study of 50 people in the future to establish the impact of follow-up support which providers are undertaking.
  • 2 good, medium term pieces of work, helpful for the future but not useful now.
  • SPODG will be useful immediately. Met x 2 and agreed 2 approaches:
  • Tweak the current database to match new Housing Act
  • Then some pilot work across 4 LAs on the tweaks
  • THEN what’s our dream database system going to look like?
  • Tackling Poverty Outcomes… unlikely to change with a new government
  • SS and Welbeing Act and Outcomes – next April – longer term services aligning with that.
  • Chris Price has given a conversation starter… open and inclusive.
  • 2 x events last week at which Chris had these conversations
  • AM’s view is that we need a single, cloud-based databank – mandatory information gathering on a few small areas, then providers can ask what they like.
  • What’s working well: momentum, opportunity, energy. Minister has commissioned TamsinStirling to examine the contribution of SP to prevent Homelessness.
  • AM: Results from a study by a behaviouralthinktank in England suggest that we need to keep it positive, when we’re talking to government about SP!
  • Bromford – forgot values of the organisation when chasing contracts – don’t let that happen here!

Action: Hugh to send out Chris Price’s ‘kicking off point’ presentation – please be clear, THIS IS NOT A WELSH GOVERNMENT CONSULTATION

Evidence and Measures

  • Discussion took place about a new outcomes database:
  • WE WANT AN OUTCOMES DATABASE – need to move away from the spreadsheets we currently use
  • We need to redesign the process so it focusses on impact
  • Tackling poverty as an ongoing priority
  • SP Support has funded debt escape… and more
  • Quantification of specialist services is difficult.
  • One issue – people can’t get specialist services because they don’t exist in the area.
  • Dual working?
  • Anything is an improvement!
  • Current system is a waste of time!
  • SYSHP Disagree – useful as a management tool, rather than an outcomes tool. Money brought in is a good, hard outcome. Some collect for their own benefit.
  • Difference between short and long term – needs definition.
  • Concern that this could become a contract tool – after say 6 month this system will be used to measure progress against a contract.
  • Narrow focus of what housing related support is.
  • Unique individual identifier – track through the system (means 16 yos don’t get dropped at 18)
  • These outcomes won’t work for LD services.
  • Political imperative to bring three strands together.
  • To prove the worth of the programme – either across a broad number of areas or across just a few
  • Older people’s services (LD in particular) won’t be able to demonstrate they meet some of these outcomes.
  • Preventative services are about more than keeping people off the streets… can mean keeping people out expensive care houses.
  • How we determine which services are asked to contribute to these outcomes is an issue for statisticians.
  • WE NEED TO COMMUNICATE WHAT SP DOES SO THAT IT’S UNDERSTOOD AND VALUED
  • SP can align with the other poverty strands, but it doesn’t need to merge.
  • Look at the areas we want to measure
  • THEN
  • Look at the terminology and definitions
  • In England the same thing happened with the SP framework – began with three measures and ended as a 130 page document which providers had to complete.Used to beat the sector up with.
  • Fidelity of intervention. Must be careful not to build something that is as bad as what we currently have.
  • Living independently as a measure
  • AL:Need different measures for different services – talking to a different audience.
  • Chris’s definition of short term service is up to 2 years.
  • Poverty is a subjective term - need to address a range of areas to overcome poverty
  • Narrow definition of the work that we do. BUT if you make it too broad then it’s not useful to communicate with politicians.
  • PERHAPS 2 tiered approach – continue with in depth, flexible monitoring in your own way, but add an extra approach which we can use to communicate with health, social care, politicians.
  • Need to get away from long/short term services. Get away from outcomes and use measures.
  • Use a menu of measures and pick as you need to cover your project.
  • Concern about changes to the system? Also IF the Sail user feasibility study works, then we may not need to collect any measures at all.
  • HI – Is financial inclusion wider than rent arrears, debts, income. How do we measure that?
  • AM – Trying to use data sets that are already in use by WG.

Key points:

  • Deficits to need-based
  • Move away from short or long term
  • Not wanting to create a monster system
  • Strictness of how this is used and what its used for
  • 2 national outcome reporting systems
  • N.B. The thoughts of Chris Robinson, Supported Housing Lead atMonmouthshire, were mentioned – an article summarising some of his views can be read here:

Support Solutions Presentation

Housing Benefit, Exempt Accommodation, Specified Accommodation

  • Specified accommodation is a red herring (cat.s 2, 3 and 4 are actually exempt accommodation,due to case law).
  • Where an agency provides ‘more than normal property management functions’ that is sufficient to be considered exempt accommodation
  • Exempt Accommodation:
  • See the slide
  • Introduced in ’95 to combat private sector landlords charging punitively high rent …
  • If you comply, then you receive increased level of HB for your tenants: 4 groups can provide these services (Volorgs., Charities, Council, RSL). N.B. These are not equal states – if you are an RSL the local authority can claim back 100% of the additional HB payment; if you are not the LA can only claim back 60% of the difference.
  • Landlord must own or lease the property
  • Tenants must need ‘care, support and supervision’ – the case law states ‘more than normal property management functions’ is sufficient to meet this
  • Where either the landlord or the agency provide ‘more than normal property management functions’
  • Specified accommodation was erroneously invented – Freud didn’t examine the case law. Specified Accommodation = Exempt Accommodation ‘light’. This was an unnecessary addition.
  • The likelihood is that there will be a devolution of HB. Might be to LAs, might be to Welsh Government. TBC.
  • Advantages of exempt accommodation:
  • Where SP is unable to fully fund housing costs, reallocate these into the housing benefit income stream. This will reduce support costs, because the definition will change.
  • Put in place a welfare fund. A Relief fund – 6 months taper for example. Charity Commission recommend this approach.
  • Exempt accommodation scenarios are a good idea:
  • If LA’s are shy in agreeing ‘reasonable or well founded’ claims – they reduce their legacy funding.
  • Support Solutions website – has a series of briefings around this. There isn’t a formula.
  • If we get a unified commissioning infrastructure, then we can look at value, instead of cost. Value always exceeds cost where preventative services are concerned.
  • It’s an individual entitlement, not one which is attached to the building
  • Specified accommodation – we’d guess 90% of this is exempt – check what you’ve got.
  • Case Law – see slide
  • Bristol CC v AW [2009] UKUT 109 (AAC)
  • R(H) 6/09, R(H) 4/09
  • Chorley – Intensive housing management counts as ‘more than normal property management functions’
  • Can be exempt accommodation if you have Alarms but not eligible for HB – Housing Management systems are HB eligible but alarms are not. If you add this HMS to your properties as well, then they become HB Eligible
  • Exempt Accommodation funding likely to be devolved to LAs… likely therefore for caps to be introduced, for eligibility criteria to be introduced.
  • Plan B – add this to your rent, not service charge.
  • We should be stating that where there are additional needs it doesn’t make financial sense to WG to restrict resources through rent control. Make a distinction between social acc. That acc.s people with additional needs and that which does not.
  • Plan C – non-statutory providers will be involved in the preventative agenda.talk to them about part funding revised service models. If we can identify the value then we can charge cost.
  • Likely to be a strong focus on outcomes.
  • Definition of Intensive Housing Management = General needs housing management more intensively applied.
  • Additional housing management tasks that reflect the additional needs of tenants with the objective of maintaining and developing independence in terms of the accommodation.
  • Intensive Housing Management tasks can include ensuring that tenants’ rent is paid regularly and on time – UC implications?
  • Door entry (access control) and alarm systems that are linked = fundable, however certain LAs are starting to draw back on that payment. ‘I’m OK System’ = HB eligible system. Telephone system – tenants agree to push the I’m OK button an agreed number of times a day. Housingproactive.com = operationally very effective and HB eligible, so free!