TUESDAY, MAY 4th, 1999
Upon commencing at 10:10 a.m.
Accused present
JOHN CHAPMAN, previously sworn
THE REGISTRAR: Are counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MR. COOPER: Content.
MR. McKECHNIE: Content.
THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury. Mr. Cooper?
MR. COOPER: Thank you, Your Honour.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF (continued) BY MR. COOPER:
Q. Mr. Chapman, while you were supplying co- caine to Mr. Stewart's organization did Mr. Stewart tell you about any other suppliers of cocaine that he had?
A. As the trip was running out, yes. Michael Vanasse had strong contacts with Montreal.
Q. Okay. You say as the trip was running out, what do you mean?
A. Well, as things were getting slimmer from Toronto and it was getting harder and harder to deal with Ivan and Papa and supplies I guess were dwindling at that point they needed a supply so I recall they went to Montreal.
Q. Okay. Do you know if they were going to Montreal at the same time that they were getting their cocaine from you, did Mr. Stewart ever say anything about that?
A. I have no way of knowing that.
Q. Your farm, sir, did you what was your intention with respect to that farm, your own intention?
A. Originally I'd planned -- it was 102 acres ---
Q.Okay.
A.--- I'd planned to sever off I think 12 acres for myself with a house and the barns, and the rest was going to be subdivided and made into a subdivision just outside of Carleton Place.
Q. Okay. And did you pursue that?
A. Oh yes. We had plans.
Q. And did it actually end up happening?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Stewart at any point take an inter- est in this proposed subdivision or the farm?
A. Yeah, Rob suggested that because I owed him money that his sister should handle this, and not wanting to make any waves and still trying to keep the whole situation cool I got a hold of his sister and tried to communicate to her what I was doing.
Q. What sister was that? Which sister was that?
A. Heather. Apparently she was attempting to be a real estate agent.
Q. Okay. And did that end up working out? What happened with Heather?
A. Nothing.
Q. Nothing?
A. Nothing. I never saw her, I never she couldn't be bothered getting involved I guess. I don't know, it just never nothing ever happened with it. I talked to her once I think.
Q. Okay. Did you ever attempt to sell the farm?
A. Several times. Actually we had three deals on the farm where the farm was sold but not closed
Q. Right.
A. and none of the deals closed.
Q. Did Mr. Stewart know anything about the status of the farm?
A. Yeah, knowing that the farm was there was an offer, a firm offer on the farm, and that I'd agreed to accept the offer it took the pressure off momentarily I guess or for a while because there was some end in sight or at least Rob thought there was some end in sight. When the farm was sold he assumed he'd get his money.
Q. Is this something you kept him up to date on?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you said all these deals ended up falling through?
A. They all fell through, yeah.
Q. What happened to the farm at the end of the day, so to speak?
A. I lost it to the bank.
Q. Before you lost it to the bank, sir, you said you were keeping Mr. Stewart up to date on the various offers you'd received?
A. Right.
Q. Is there a certain date, sir, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. Did you tell him what the closing dates were with respect to either one of these three closings?
A. With the final closing, yes. I don't know if I told Rob directly or I indicated to John Hately that the closing date was June 26th I believe.
Q. Okay. Now who is John Hately?
A. John Hately was the collector that took over from Rick Mallory when Rick failed to collect.
Q. Okay. You're talking about your own situa- tion or more generally?
A. Well my own situation for sure. I couldn't talk about anybody else's.
Q. Okay. So when Mr. Mallory was unsuccessful at collecting from you this Hately fellow appeared on the scene?
A. That's right.
Q. And how was he presented to you or how did that happen?
A. He just showed up at my door with a gun and made some threats but I'd known him a long time too.
Q. What was Mr. Hately's history?
A. ExSatan's Choice, thrown out of the club because he was just in French it's très fucké.
Q. Okay. I think we can probably guess what that is in English.
How long had you known Mr. Hately?
A. Many years.
Q. Okay. And you say he showed up at your house one day with a gun and what was the discussion about?
A. Well he let me know in no uncertain terms that he'd taken over collecting Rob's debts and that he was determined to collect this one and although we went back a long way, you know how it is, buddybuddy kind of bullshit, he'd
have to do what he'd have to do. I said "Not a problem, John. I've got this deal closing on June 26th, I should have some money for you then." He called my house several times after that talking to my wife, my wife just freaked right out because she thought I was back in the drug business.
Q. Right.
A. I had agreed that on the 26th when the deal closed that I'd meet them I'd meet John Hately at 10:00 or 10:30 in the morning, I can't recall the exact time, at Hately's house.
Q. Okay. The 26th of June which year, sir?
A. That would've been '90.
Q. Okay. Did the deal in fact close on that date?
A. No, the deal fell through.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. Hately know that in advance?
A. No, he fully expected me to walk through the door and have some cash.
Q. Okay. And did you keep your appointment with Mr. Hately on the 26th of June '90?
A. Yes, I went there in an effort to explain well listen, you know, this is what happened but I got another deal in the offering. I was just stringing it out as long as I could, just buying time really.
Q. Okay. I'd like you, if you would, to de- scribe to the jury the events of that morning. First of all, where does Mr. Hately live, approximately?
A. Churchill and Richmond Road, I think it's Winona is the name of the street.
Q. Okay.
A. The events of that morning. Well, I went to try and explain my way out of this situation. I was a few min- utes late. As I walked through the door I was greeted with a pipe behind the ear, something in the neighbourhood of an inch and a half in diameter lead pipe wrapped in gray duct tape. I mean I went immediately to the ground. I saw stars. At that point I didn't know who else was in the room, and everyone was kicking me. There was quite a flurry of blows, a lot of beating with the pipe and the idea of the tape around the pipe is that you bruise from the inside out rather than show a bruise. I was on the floor taking a severe beating. I managed to get to my feet. I managed to fend off the blows by putting my arms up in this manner. I backed down the hallway to the end of the it was a long narrow house with a kitchen in the rear and a glass porch immediately behind that, I backed up to the window, I was 60 pounds lighter then, I planned to jump through the window and get out any way I could. As I got to the window, still being beaten with the pipe, I looked out the window and there was two Rottweilers on the porch so that avenue of escape was cut off to me. I managed to calm Michael down. At this point it was Michael with the pipe that kept coming at me and saying things like "Take it like a man", tra la la la, you know, after being kicked around the floor for five or 10 minutes.
I think what happened then was I convinced Michael that "All right, calm down, I'll call my lawyer, I'll see what I can arrange" and proceeded to do that. They gave me Rob's cellular, Rob Stewart's cellular. I got a hold of my law- yer and I was just babbling on the phone, I was talking a mile a minute to save my life because I really figured I was going to die. My lawyer couldn't make any sense of what I was saying, I don't even think I made any sense, I was just trying to make
it sound important enough or legal enough that they would believe something was happening.
Q. Who do you mean by "they"?
A. Rob, John Hately and Michael Vanasse. My lawyer agreed to see me if I came right over and it wasn't too far away, it was only six or seven blocks because he was on Carling Avenue near Churchill. Before the phone call was finished John Hately blindsided me, broke the phone and the beating started again. A gun was stuck to the side of my head, there was a lot of discussion above me, a lot of I guess dis- cussion between the three of them what they were going to do with me. One of the comments was something to the nature of "Let's dump him like the two in Rockland" or "the couple in Rockland", but I can't be exactly sure of the exact phrasing of what was said. Like I said they put a gun to the side of my head. The beating continued for a little while and then it subsided. I got up, I was in pretty rough shape, my clothes were ripped, during the beating my bowls had let go.
Michael Vanasse and Rob Stewart left. Rob picked up his phone, his broken cellular phone, off the floor and put it in a plastic IGA bag or something and when I turned my head one way he gave me an extra little swipe with the phone and his comment as he was going out the door was "Fuck you, I don't care about the money, I don't give a fuck if you live or die. Dump him if you have to" and that was the last time I saw Rob Stewart until just yesterday.
Q. Perhaps I'll just let you continue with the narrative and then I'm going to go back and ask you some further questions.
A.I think that's ---
Q.What happens after that point? Mr. Stewart and Mr. Vanasse leave the Hately residence and what happens to you next?
A. They took me in a car with a gun or John Hately took me in his car with a gun. He stopped to pick up someone else so that he'd be able to hold the gun on me. He took me to my lawyer's office, Stephen Cooper.
Q. I'll just pause there. No relation to me?
A. Hopefully not.
Q. Please continue.
A. Cooper had one of these offices that had a partial glass front that you can close the drapes for privacy or have them open. I asked him to leave them open. John Hately sat in the lobby maybe from here to the back of the courtroom, watching what was going on. I said to my lawyer -- I told him everything that just happened. I said "I'm in severe trouble here. There's a guy in the lobby with a gun. They're going to kill me unless I come up with some cash." I think his comment was "I suppose it's too late to call 9-1-1", which was correct. I said "All I want you to do is shake my hand at the office door and say no problem John, you'll have your money at 4:00 o'clock", I was just buying my time, and Steve went along with me. He walked me to the door, shook my hand, he said "No prob- lem, John, you'll have your money at 4:00 o'clock." You could see the relief on Hately's face because he figured he was going to have a pay day. And we left. He still had the gun. We went from there, the young guy that he had picked up and Hately, I was in the back seat, they drove me to a little restaurant on Churchill and Richmond Road called Puzzles. We had a beer, things sort of calmed down and John was very apologetic, "you know we go back a long way, you know I really didn't mean it to
come to this but I have orders." He made it clear that he was ordered by Vanasse and Stewart to hang a beating on me whether I had the money or not was the kicker to the whole thing. Even if I'd had the money I was getting a beating anyway.
After a couple of beers everything sort of calmed down I guess and my mind is still going 100 miles an hour knowing I've got to get away, you know, this is like 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock in the morning and I'm supposed to have some cash by 4:00 o'clock and I've only got a few hours to dream up some plan to escape. So I approached John with the idea that geez, this is really messing up my day, I've got a big hash deal to do and geez, if I can only do this hash deal I'd have a few extra bucks so we can drink 'til 4:00 o'clock and I'd also have a piece of hash, and that certainly got to him, he said "Geez, you know, we go back a long ways." He says "I'll let you go and do the hash deal but don't ever tell Michael because Michael will kill me" and I said "Oh no, I'd never do that, never, John, you know, after all we've been to each other" kind of thing, you know. He let me go. I walked out the door and it was only a block over to where my car was, I wanted to run but I didn't, I walked quickly, I got in my car and I went home and I got my gun and I packed my bags and I moved away.
Q. What about the Top Stop gas bar?
A. I stopped at the Top Stop, I gave Red Bergeron, my mechanic, orders to close the place up, pack it all up, we're closed. I closed well they closed the service station, I just gave them orders. I wasn't hanging around town. There was no way I was hanging around another minute in Ottawa because I knew that my number was up.
Q. What about your family, your wife and fami- ly?
A. I called my wife at work, I told her to pull the kids out of school as soon as she could and it was the end of the school season luckily. She packed up the kids and met me where I was. I called my mother, my mother packed up and I left town and my whole family left town.
Q. Now we want to be careful, we're not going to ask you where you went to or where you are now either.
A. Well I'm not there anymore so it doesn't matter.
Q. In any event we don't need to go into that. Did you ever do any more business at the Top Stop?
A. No.
Q. That was the last day for business there under your ---
A. Under my operation, yes.
Q. Now, I'd like to go back and review that and ask you some questions, I didn't want to interrupt you when you were going through it.
When you first walked into Mr. Hately's residence who do you see and where are they located?
A. I don't recall that I saw anybody when I first walked in.
Q. Okay.
A. I knocked on the door, somebody said "Come in." As a matter of fact until this from that day to this any room I walk into I automatically look behind the door because I'd never had a shot like that before in my life. You have to picture I was 60 pounds lighter but I was still 200
pounds, I was a pretty formidable character, and to get piped like that was startling.
Q. Where had Mr. Vanasse been?
A. Hiding behind the door. There was a small closet behind the door in this house ---
Q. Right.
A. --- and I was set up.
Q. Okay. You take the initial pipe to the head. When do you see that there's anyone else present?
A. Well, I think I through the number of feet that were jumping all over me I knew there was more than one right away. I don't think I really got the whole thing clear. You have to picture it, I just took a pipe in the head, I've got a lump behind my ear about the size of a tennis ball. I don't think I really saw who was in the room until I got to my feet and even then I would've seen them like this, blocking blows from the pipe.
Q. Okay. Are you receiving any blows other than from the pipe?
A. Pardon me?
Q. There's three individuals there. Is there more than one pipe?
A. No, there's one pipe.
Q. Okay.
A. One pipe. No, Rob Stewart was getting his kicks in me when he could and Johnny Hately, John used to like to wear construction boots like these.
Q. Yes?
A. Steel toes.
Q. So you were getting struck by the pipe and you were being kicked by the other two gentlemen?
A. When I was down, yes.
Q. Were you being struck with anything else, sir?
A. Not until just before Rob left when he hit me with the phone.
Q. Okay. Is there anything said to you during the course of this initial beating or said -- anything that you heard said between the other three gentlemen?
A. There was -- it was kind of like another world, like it's all happening above you and you're on the ground and you're thinking you're going to die but people are above you talking.
Q. Right.
A. There was talk about dumping him and stuff like that. I think my thought at the time honestly was they're not going to shoot me in this guy's living room and make a mess on his new carpet kind of thing, you know.