Oral History of Barry Saunders

ORAL HISTORY OF BARRY SAUNDERS

Interviewed by Don Hunnicutt

Filmed by BBB Communications, LLC.

December 9, 2016

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MR. HUNNICUTT:This interview is for the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History. The date is December 9, 2016. I am Don Hunnicutt, with Barry Saunders, in the studio of BBB Communications, LLC., 170 Randolph Road, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, to take his oral history about Oak Ridge, and Oak Ridge football. Barry, please state your full name, place of birth, and date.

MR. SAUNDERS: Ok. Barry Alan Saunders. (clears throat) I was born in (clears throat) -- excuse me -- Lexington, Virginia, May 21, 1948.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And your father's name, place of birth, and date.

MR. SAUNDERS: Ok. His name was Ernest, E-R-N-E-S-T, Ernest Saunders and he was born in Bluefield, West Virginia, on June 18, 1923.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, your mother ...

MR. SAUNDERS: My mother ...

MR. HUNNICUTT:... and her maiden name, as well.

MR. SAUNDERS: Ok. It was Doris Umberger.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Spell that, please.

MR. SAUNDERS: U-M-B-E-R-G-E-R, German name. Doris Mae Umberger, M-A-E, middle name. Then, she was born in, let's see, right around Wytheville, Virginia, on January 31, 1924.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, on your father's side, your grandparents, your grandmother, and grandfather, and, if you know the place of birth, and dates.

MR. SAUNDERS: I'm not sure where they were born. They grew up and lived inBluefield, West Virginia. So, I'm not, I can't remember the, where they were born…

MR. HUNNICUTT:Ok.What about on your mother's side?

MR. SAUNDERS: My mother's side? Her dad was born there, in Wytheville, on a farm. He had a huge farm in Wytheville, Virginia. And, my grandmother Little, she was born just outside there, somewhere, Crockett or something, small place there in Virginia. They married and then divorced when Mother was in middle school, and she and her, her mother and her moved to Bluefield, West Virginia, and she went to high school, Beaver, and that's where she met Dad. Dad and they dated all the way through high school and when he got out, he went to Tech, Virginia Tech.Then in two years, then the war came about and he ended up in Germany in a prisoner of war camp for 18 months. He had a twin brother who was also captured, in another different, put in a different camp, but they both survived and made it back to the states.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Did, did your father ever talk much about being a POW [Prisoner of War]?

MR. SAUNDERS: (clears throat) Never did. My sister and I tried to get him to use a tape recorder, to talk about his... Never could get a word out of him. It was really a traumatic experience.His brother, his brother, twin brother, too, they, neither one wanted to talk about it.

MR. HUNNICUTT:What about your father’s school history?

MR. SAUNDERS: He went to Beaver High School.Then he went back and graduated from Virginia Tech, in chemical engineering.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, did your mother attend ... What was her school history.

MR. SAUNDERS: She went to [inaudible] College in, let's see, where is that, Johnson City or Kingsport.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Not sure.

MR. SAUNDERS: I think it may've been in Johnson City, but anyway [inaudible] College, she went there. I believe it was a two-year college.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, what did she come out with, or what was her... ?

MR. SAUNDERS: Like, secretarial-type things like that, but she never did work in that area. She and Dad married in 1947.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Do you recall where they got married?

MR. SAUNDERS: In Bluefield, West Virginia. Dad worked over at the M-E-A-D, Mead Corporation until he retired down here in Harriman back in the late '80s, when the plant shut down.He had enough years, and everything, and he took a retirement.

MR. HUNNICUTT:What type work is that?

MR. SAUNDERS: He was vice president of environmental issues with him, when he retired, but he worked in the chemical aspect, paper, you know, testing paper, and everything. They, in Harriman, they made the corrugated part that goes in between, in, on your ...

MR. HUNNICUTT:Cardboard?

MR. SAUNDERS: Cardboard, no. In fact, during my college days, let's see, 1966, to ... to '70, in the summer time, they'd hire, they hired college kids, and a lot of my buddies, their dads were, you know, just workers down there and they'd get to work in the main office. Dad had me down in the plant in the big beater machine, hot, dirty, different shift work and out in the main yard, tearing up railroad ties to the ... "Dad, Dad, why are we doing this?" He said, "You'll see (huh!) you'll see someday, son." The biggest thing that he did that for is to get me to realize that education's important.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah, yeah.

MR. SAUNDERS: And, that's where I cherish that, thank him for that.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah. Do you have sisters, and brothers?

MR. SAUNDERS: Got one sister, Marcia, M-A-R-C-I-A. She and her family live in Birmingham, Alabama, both graduated from UT [University of Tennessee].So they're stuck down there in the middle of (laughs) Nick Saban country. (laughs) But, they’ve got a daughter, just got married a couple of years ago, and have a son that's in his early 30s. Butshe works in the medical field. In fact, she was working with AIDS [Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome] research, in New Jersey, when her husband worked for [inaudible] paper there. But since then, she's ... When they moved to Birmingham she decided, you know, to raise the kids at, oh, at Indianapolis, and raise the kids until they got out of high school, and all, and moved to Birmingham.She got back in the medical field where she's dealing with, constantly, daily, on the computer or on the phone, with pharmaceuticals and doctors, and drugs, and so forth, like that.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Where did you go to elementary school?

MR. SAUNDERS: Harriman Elementary.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, how many grades did they have in the elementary school?

MR. SAUNDERS: We had one through six.

MR. HUNNICUTT:You remember some of your teachers' names?

MR. SAUNDERS: I know Mrs. Wehr, Kay Wehr. She was a teacher and her husband was the manager of the paper mill when Dad first came here. And, W-E-H-R, and anyway, she was a tremendously great person. In fact, she was sort of like a third grandmother. We, you know, my mother took care of her until she passed away in early '90s, up in her 90s, but that's one stands out. I don't remember a whole lot of ... don't remember a whole lot of ... elementary [school] days now. Junior high, went to junior high in Kingston. We moved over to Kingston, and, at that time, and went there to seventh, and eighth grade.I had a whole bunch of, whole bunch of teachers I can remember and one of them that, when I signed up to go to high school, I sign up Algebra I and she changed it on my transcript thing, or form. My dad found out about it and wanted to know why. He said, "Well, he can't do math. He can't do that." So, I went over ... So when he overrode it, I went in and did math all the way through high school, and, you know, Algebra I, and II, trigonometry, and all that stuff. Went to college and majored in biology and mathematics and went back to tell her about it. She'd passed away the year before. Made me mad. (laughter)

MR. HUNNICUTT:Well, why do you think she felt that way?

MR. SAUNDERS: Well, it's a lot of times, that they put the, I know, in my education, the teaching, and so forth, they put [inaudible]. Now, they don't take into consideration what you think a kid can do. What does he show on paper. I, I didn't put a whole lot ... My dad was standing over me at nighttime, made me do my homework, and in middle school time, I was more of a, "Hey, I want to watch basketball," or do things like that.He didn't drill into me until I got into high school, about the importance of education and all. As she, you know, she probably thought, "Well, he's just lazy, and he won't get it done." Won't be good for him, and all that. So, that's the only thing I could figure out.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Did you play sports in junior high?

MR. SAUNDERS: No, I didn't.

MR. HUNNICUTT:How about high school?

MR. SAUNDERS: High school, I was a little four-foot, eight. I tried out for basketball, once and that was a disaster. Football, I was way too small for that. So, I had some buddies that got me to go out for golf. So, I ... had a broken arm from playing basketball and they got me to come out and play golf with them, with one arm. I had more fun.So after I recovered from all that, I ended up on the golf team there, for four years. That was my sport in high school. I use that analogy in my coaching, for all the kickers now, and all. So ...

MR. HUNNICUTT:Well, golf's a sport, you know.

MR. SAUNDERS: Yeah, that's right. It sure is.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Very demanding mentally-wise, as well as physical.

MR. SAUNDERS: Well, to get off here one second, Scott Stallings, ok, he was in middle school with Kevin McKeithen [sp?].And Kevin's mother was going through cancer treatments and so on at that time.His dad said, "Could he come up here to the field in the evenings and just hang around with you guys to get his mind off ... things?" I said, "Sure, sure." Kevin came up there and he would, he'd pass the ball around, a lot of the guys he played team quarterback for, as you know. Well, Scott came up there, and he, I got him to kick some. I said, "Lord a mercy, you're good. I can't wait until you get up here." "Oh, I play golf." I said, "Golf. You come out for football, we'll get you a scholarship and all this stuff and we'll take care of you. You'll be a great kicker. You do that.” He got to high school. I said, "Scott, are you coming out?" "Nah, I'm playing golf." "Oh, come on, Scott." “I love golf. I play golf. I hate football." Well, look where he is now. (laughter) He is making more money than I'll ever make in a lifetime. (laughter)

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah. You know, he won the tournament his rookie year out on the tour? And, that's, kind of, unheard of. He's very successful, no doubt.

MR. SAUNDERS:He married, from Kingston, our next door neighbor's daughter. He married her and so they married.My next door neighbor's daughter's daughter. Yeah, that. I had her math class here, a number of years ago, too, up there.

MR. HUNNICUTT:What is the last name ... the, you know, the gal that he married?

MR. SAUNDERS: White, is the last name.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah, I know her parents.

MR. SAUNDERS: Jennifer, Jennifer ...

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah.

MR. SAUNDERS: Yeah, uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, yeah ... her mother and I grew up together, next door, there in Kingston. Cook, she was a Cook.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Yeah. What about that? So, you didn't like school too much, or ... ?

MR. SAUNDERS: Back in middle school days, it's, no, I didn't get into it. Then when I got into high school, Dad really showed me the importance of an education.He got me pushed into all that. I, that's when I really learned how to study, and do my, do the value of my time, and all.

MR. HUNNICUTT:So, what year did you graduate?

MR. SAUNDERS: High school, in 1966.

MR. HUNNICUTT:And, what'd you do after that?

MR. SAUNDERS:Of course, I worked in the summertime in the papermill. Then I went to Tennessee Wesleyan College, at that time. It's Tennessee Wesleyan University now. But went to Tennessee Wesleyan College for four years andstarted out in veterinary medicine.Going through it all, thinking about it, talking about it, I've got such a kind heart for animals. Dad said, "Well, you know, some day, son, you'll have to put animals to sleep and stuff like that." And, I started thinking about all that stuff and I said, "No, that's not, not the route I want to go." So I double majored, then ... double major in biology and mathematics.You know, do that, and that's fine, and this was back before Nixon put a price wage freeze on things, back in the early '70s.[They] said, "You major in the ... " Mr. Wehr, manager of the plant my dad worked on, lot of people said, "Hey, major in your biology. You're [inaudible] up there. You'll have a job waiting for you." Well, when I graduated in 1970 from Tennessee Wesleyan, then, that's when all that big economy, everything was going down bad. The guy who –there were gasoline problems, and everything back then. I didn't know what to do, so I went to grad school at UT and didn't like that. I was in biology and it just, just didn't appeal to me.I was making jokes in the labs and all these people from all these other, different countries, nationalities, were staring at me, going, "I don't think I belong in here." So I went back to Tennessee Wesleyan, took enough education hours to get certified and did a student teaching that Spring.I went to, I said, like, a lot of little young kids and that's what I told the kids when I taught over here, "I want to get out of here." I applied from Daytona, just along the coast, up to Tampa. Only coast, nowhere inside. And, the Florida Keys called me. The personnel director questioned me from, lengthily on the telephone, and, "Would you like the job?" I said, "Well, I need to come interview." He said, "No, you want the job?" I said, "Well, yes, sir, I guess so." Because, he said that he'd been, that he and President Turner of Tennessee Wesleyan, had been together at another university together for a while, and he, they were best of friends.Of course, I was in all kinds of clubs and stuff, in college and the President's fraternity and I knew President Turner very well and he put me a good, good reference. So, I left in the summer of 19 -- let's see, '71 and headed down to the Florida Keys. Where I really wanted to go, being young like that, was Daytona, was around Ft. Lauderdale. And, believe it or not, on my way down, Ft. Lauderdale called. (laughs) My dad never would tell me. Didn't tell me until later. It was about Christmas or something, he said, you know, they'd called. He said, "You'd already made your mind up. I wasn't going to let you change your mind." So, I had a great time down there. I got into teaching science and math, and it was a K through 12 school. They had one grade each, K through 12, but had another school up the, up the road there in Keys, but it was a ... [inaudible] between middle school and high school in the upper Keys. I got into coaching football. Of course, I'd been into golf all my life and I knew football and wanted to get outside. "I need help out here." "I'll teach you. Come on." So I went out and helped the receivers and defensive backs who taught me a lot of stuff. Then, also, this guy from Ball State, Indiana, came down his first year teaching, too. But his parents would always come to the Keys and every summer, and spend, you know, most of the summertime. So he knew, he was new to the Keys, and he's, he'd wrestled at Ball State. He said, "Let's start a wrestling team." I said, "Ok. Where do you put the ring at?" He said, "You are from East Tennessee, aren't you?" He said, "We use mats." "Oh, ok." So, I got into coaching with him for two years. He left after two years, and I took it over as the, as the head coach for the next two years. So, assisted, I was still assisting the JV [Junior Varsity] football coach, and JV football coach and he was my assistant in wrestling. So we had a good time right there.

MR. HUNNICUTT:Let's, let's talk a little bit about wrestling. Tell me about what the format is for wrestling.

MR. SAUNDERS: Well, I tried to start it here, when I came to Oak Ridge. I tried really hard. That was back in the time when Oak Ridge was going through the Title IX stuff and all this stuff, and ... keep the basketball deal and everything. They just couldn't see to afford to start the program. But what you get, what you do, is it's, once you get the start up going, like, you need uniforms and a mat. The mat's going to be the most expensive part. And then, your uniforms. Then after that, it's just transportation and replacing the uniforms now and then, when they get worn down. But, that's additional expense. And, of course, your officials and so forth. But, I got into it and I learn, I learned a whole lot. It was a lot of fun, if it's, it's…When I was in the Keys, I had some of the kids in the football program out there. Howard Duncan, who came from Elizabethton, Tennessee, was the head football coach then. Mike Young, who quarterbacked for ETSU [East Tennessee State University] against Terry Bradshaw from Louisiana Tech, back in 1970, that it? '70, '70, '69, '70, for the national championship. So, Mike, Mike was down there as assistant coach, and he was the athletic director, and all.So I got to be good friends with them. They get the football players out and I'd wean them down, get all the fat off of them and make them strong, you know. The coach said, "My gosh, what're you doing to my boys? They're losing weight." "Yeah, but they're getting stronger." But, we had a lot of fun. I was seven and five my first year, and seven, four and one my next year. All of the two years I was there, I won seven games off of seven matches or against one, two, three “A” schools. We went up to four A back then and the four A schools were [inaudible]. These schools had five, six thousand students and we're like, two, three hundred, you know, in ours. We did really well, competing wise, but I had one kid go to the state tournament for a couple of years. But it was, you know, I didn't have as many people to choose from like those bigger schools did. But I never had any problems with one, two and threes, but I never could get the four A's.