Washington State Department of Transportation
North Spokane Corridor Executive Advisory Committee
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Meeting Notes
North Spokane CorridorExecutive Advisory Committee
February 15, 2017 - 10:00 a.m.
WSDOT, 2714 N. Mayfair, Spokane, WA
Committee Members Present
Kathryn Alexander, Bemiss Neighborhood
Richard Burris, Greater Hillyard Business Association
Heleen Dewey, Spokane Regional Health District
Matt Ewers, Inland Empire Distribution Systems
Colleen Gardner, Chief Garry Park Neighborhood
Mike Gribner, WSDOT
Susan Meyer, Spokane Transit Authority
Todd Mielke, Greater Spokane Incorporated
Scott Simmons, City of Spokane
Larry Stone, ESBA/SRTC
Karen Sutula, East Central Neighborhood
Luke Tolley, Hillyard Neighborhood
Kevin Wallace, Facilitator
Committee Members Not Present but Represented by an Alternate
Grant Pfeifer represented by Kathleen Falconer, Department of Ecology
Amber Waldref represented by Mike Fagan, City of Spokane
Guests Present
Paul Kropp
Louis Mueller, City of Spokane Planning
Mike Frucci, WSDOT Assistant Regional Administrator for Development
Al Gilson, WSDOT Public Information Officer
Bob Hilmes, WSDOT NSC Project Engineer
Charlene Kay, WSDOT Planning, Place making presenter
Darrel McCallum, WSDOT Engineering Manager
Gina Cadagan, WSDOT Executive Assistant, notes
The handouts and slides from this meeting are available at
- Place Making/Eastern Washington University (EWU) Update – Charlene Kay
Bob Hilmes and Char Kay met with the Spokane Regional Health District regarding engagement efforts. They are in the process of completing a draft Community Engagement Plan that will incorporate all of the stakeholders.
WSDOT wants to move ahead withplacemaking – we will as soon as we have contracts with EWU in place – hopefully the master agreement will be in place in a couple of weeks. There will be times throughout this project that we may engage architects, urban designers and others as needed. EWU will be our facilitator and guidance through the process. The community must create a vision – what do you want to see? WSDOT is looking at funding, including partnership opportunities.
One focus area is the remainder of the design of the Children of the Sun trail. Ask the neighborhoods to look at what you can imagine.
Kathryn Alexander recommended the book“Seeing the Better City”, which gives practical methods for looking at your city.
Hillyard and Bemiss Neighborhoods will be the first areas we look at, but the other neighborhoods will be invited to the discussions.
Colleen Gardner recently received an email about the Millwood Trail – will that affect our trail? Per Char Kay, yes, we will look at what type of trail will this be and where will we connect. The project office will look at what we need. WSDOT will meet with the City of Spokane Bicycle Advisory Group, and other trail users for input before design. They will be our technical resources.
Maintenance of the trail is part of placemaking, which will be discussed. It will take working together with everyone to deliver the best possible results. An idea was to possibly partner with the libraries to have an on-site library once a month or once a quarter, or with the neighborhoods, or an amphitheater.
There are a lot of agencies and organizations involved – all have different strengths and roadblocks regarding funding. That is the benefit of this advisory level team – it will require joint agreements to make it work – the neighborhoods will need to own part of it. Per Todd Mielke, we need to look at the Centennial Trail and how it has been handled as an example. Centennial Trail agreements involve the City of Spokane, Parks Department, City of Millwood, Spokane County, and more.
If you have questions about the place making, please contact Charlene Kay at or 509-324-6195.
- NSC Black Tank Status – Mike Gribner/Bob Hilmes
At the last advisory team meeting, we had a robust discussion about the black tankrisks and costs. WSDOT committed to working on this, and there have been substantial conversations since the last meeting.
There is no decision yet, but here is some insight on how it is going and where it is headed.
At the last meeting, Representative Shea was asked to engage the Governor’s office, which has been done. They are on the sidelines being made aware of how it is going and will intervene if there is a gap in progress.
There are many electedpeople involved, which is good.
WSDOT has no decision-making authority in how the black tank is cleaned up. Neighborhoods have preferences in how the alignment looks, which we have taken into consideration in our discussions. We have had discussions with the City of Spokane. The real issue is whether or not a cleanup method can be agreed upon and if the facility can exist on that location and whether we can build it and afford it.
About six or seven weeks ago, Mike Gribner had a phone conversation with two officials from BNSF, and Jim Pendowski, Ecology’s Toxic Cleanup Program Manager. We heard there was interest in making an agreement. A meeting was set with attorneys along with decision makers for Spokane. At the first meeting, BNSF pulled back a bit from what was heard on the phone. They had one cleanup method in mind and commented they would not allow access until an agreement on the method was achieved. What is on the table for the cleanup method is different between BNSF and Ecology. Bioventing is what BNSF was recommending – introducing air into the site. Ecology is still interested in steam and there may be disputes over what works and how long it takes for cleanup.
Kathleen Falconer fromEcology took a few moments and explained some of the bioventing process.
Gribner continued: WSDOT cannot move the NSC project forward with that much uncertainty. It was agreed to have another meeting without attorneys, just technical staff. BNSF showed up at that meeting with a proposal. It changed the trajectory of the conversation again. BNSF proposed a contingent option at the second meeting that included steam. Now we are down to the details and whether the parties can agree on them.
Proposal by BNSF: Can you move your facility a little way to the west to get more access to the High RTIF area? If so, would Ecology entertain not having 100 percent access to the site? BNSF thinks bioventing would work but steam will accelerate the time. WSDOT looked at that as movement by BNSF towards a possible solution. Ecology listened to the proposal and shared a few concerns. BNSF would like WSDOT to provide money – the question is how much and what are we paying for? The dollar amounts that discussed are $10 to $20 million dollars of commitment from WSDOT. If we can get to an agreement, we will have the original alignment and profile. Many compromises are still needed to close the gaps and make it happen.
Mike Fagan asked what is the hard and drop dead date for WSDOT in making the alignment determination?
Gribner – We can move the date but it costs more money and risk. If this agreement comes completely unraveled in the next few weeks, we will make a decision to pursue an option that avoids the Black Tank.
Fagan - What can elected officials do to help this situation?
Gribner - The local elected officials have been very involved in this decision, which is helpful. Not sure that there is more political involvement needed at this point – the discussions between WSDOT, Ecology and BNSF need to be worked out.
Luke Tolley – First you said the alignment would move to the west a bit, but later said would stay with original alignment. Please clarify. Hilmes replied that moving would start north of Wellesley and south to Black Tank area. One of the potential solutions being investigated involves moving both the rail and NSC about 15 feet to the west of the original alignment to reduce the impact to the primary clean up area.
Simmons asked if rail would also need to move, and Gribner replied yes, but the profile would stay the same.
Colleen Gardner asked at what point do you decide that we will not have an agreement. Gribner replied that BNSF does not view the steam operation and the facility as compatible. If Ecology decides they need 100% access, then an agreement looks unlikely.
Gardner asked for the time frame, and Gribner replied that he thinks we are within weeks. This puts Ecology in a tough spot. To collaborate for the sake of the neighborhoods and WSDOT they are stretching themselves and the MTCA process.
Falconer – Ecology is looking at how long it will take to clean up the area. Bioventing takes a very, very long time. We are trying to protect the aquifer. Steam shortens that time. Heleen Dewey asked what are Ecology’s concerns. Gribner said there is a disagreement on periods of bioventing. Laws may lead to Ecology having 100% access to the site. They are trying to reach a result in the public’s best interest, as well as stay within the laws.
Heleen Dewey – who would be liable? Gribner replied that WSDOT has asked for indemnification from the railroad. WSDOT needs to be released from liability.
Burris - What are the odds that Ecology will accept the proposal? Percentage? If the wheels do fall off the process, a few weeks ago, I made the suggestion of the freeway going under the railroad. Falconer replied that the decision is more in the railroad’s hand. Gribner said that the negotiationsare still underway. We are looking at options but do not think the railroad would agree to the freeway going under the rail.
Karen Sutula from East Central asked, doesn’t bioventing take at least100 years? That is what Jeremy from Ecology said when he came and talked with our neighborhood. Falconer replied that Ecology believes it takes 100 to 400 years. Gribner said the whole point of the contingency option is to have a mechanism in place to accelerate it.
Alexander – why is BNSF asking you to not pay attention to it for atime period? It appears a closer monitoring would be beneficial. Falconer replied that BNSF’s counterproposal is due March 2, 2017 to Ecology. There will be public notification for comments.
Gribner asked if it is fair to say that steam might not work. Falconer said that with steam it is a question of money – it takes a while to heat the ground, which can take up to 18 months, then there is a well in the middle where it is removed. How much energy is put down – the aquifer is very cold. So what is the cost and time benefit? Steam is used in conjunction with other remedies, such as bioventing.
Sutula asked what are the other options? Gribner replied that the final option is to put curtains in and be sure the spill does not spread, which is a very expensive approach. Falconer said the curtains are to protect our aquifer.
Simmons – The three above options are the practical options. Digging it out is also an option but that is not a practical solution – that would affect a large part of Hillyard. He also said that he appreciates that BNSF came back to the table, likely because of the discussions involving WSDOT and Ecology. Appreciate the momentum moving forward to protect the original alignment.
Tolley asked if there is an air pollution component to bioventing. Falconer replied that with bioventing you are releasing CO2.
Tolley asked what is the timeline of the contingency option? Gribner replied that what BNSF has asked WSDOT to do is to put an escrow account together to help fund the solution. BNSF would give us back whatever is not spent. Contingency would have facility in place. Would develop steps for them to enhance the timeline. First assessment of success would be about five years.
Hillyard neighborhood meeting is Wednesday, February 22.
Ecology and WSDOT will meet soon. WSDOT cannot move forward unless Ecology is okay with it the direction.
Dewey asked about the schedule of neighborhood meetings. WSDOT will have a community engagement timeline available on website. Ecology will post their public comment schedule on their website. BNSF proposal to Ecology – if an agreement, that is what will go to public comment.
Alexander, Bemiss – Most placemaking focus will be on the trail? Gribner replied that is a large part of it but please do not limit your ideas at this point.
Sutula, East Central - We talked about traffic flow from the south hill. When can we meet about that? Bob Hilmes would be the one to meet with you and likely could on short notice. Bob will contact her.
Next meeting: April 24, 2017 at 10:00 am
WSDOT Eastern Region Office
2714 N Mayfair Street
Spokane WA 99207