Procedural Matters (Open Session)Page 1
1 Monday, 4 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances today, please.
12 MS. PIDWELL: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the
14 Prosecution.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Slobodan Cvijetic and Deirdre Montgomery for the Stanisic Defence
17 team.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
19 Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and
20 Daniella Sinobad appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
22 May we have the witness back to the stand, if there is nothing
23 that we need divert our attention to.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Miskovic, good morning to you. I remind you,
Monday, 04 October 2010Case No. IT-08-91-T
Witness: Simo Miskovic (Resumed) (Open Session)Page 1
Examination by Ms. Pidwell (Continued)
1 sir, that you're still on your oath.
2 Yes, Ms. Pidwell.
3 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Ms. Pidwell: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, sir.
8 A. It doesn't work.
9 Q. Good morning, sir.
10 A. [In English] Morning.
11 Q. Is it working now?
12 A. [Interpretation] It's working.
13 Q. Sir, on Friday, we -- we ended by looking at a document which
14 were the minutes of the Municipal Board meeting which was held on the
15 23rd of April, 1992. Do you recall that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And there was a reference in that document to a meeting which was
18 scheduled to take place two days later at Cirkin Polje.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you attend that meeting at Cirkin Polje on Saturday,
21 the 25th of April?
22 A. I did. I did.
23 Q. Who was present at that meeting?
24 A. Well, according to the agenda, there was the commander of the TO,
25 Kuruzovic; and the chief of the MUP, Simo Drljaca; as well as the
1 representatives of the Serb authorities of the Serbian municipality of
2 the Prijedor, that is, the -- the highest ranking people, Mico Kovacevic,
3 Slavisa Dakic, and others.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Mico Stakic.
5 MS. PIDWELL:
6 Q. And do you recall the decisions that were made at that meeting?
7 A. I remember. Since there was the danger of continued
8 confrontation in Prijedor municipality, in order to prevent the
9 conflicts, it was decided to seize power. And it was agreed that this
10 would take place at 4.00 a.m., and it was done that way, indeed.
11 Q. And how was it decided on which day this takeover would take
12 place?
13 A. I spoke about that earlier. On that day, the 29th, I was at a
14 meeting in Prijedor at the MUP. The representatives of the SDA were
15 there, the political representatives, and the representatives of the
16 authorities. Mujadzic and the president of the municipality, whose name
17 I always forget. And there was the chief of the MUP, Telundzic. And it
18 was a friendly conversation until the communications clerk brought a
19 dispatch and read it out to all of us and the dispatch said that the
20 Muslim forces were attacking barracks, intercepting our armoured
21 vehicles. And then among the police officers present at the meeting,
22 there was a commotion, but we were able to calm them.
23 After the meeting, I was invited to come to the barracks, and I
24 did. Everybody was sitting there, Kuruzovic and ... Kuruzovic, the
25 TO commander; then Simo, the chief of the MUP; and Jankovic.
1 Furthermore, Cadzo; Arsic, the barracks commander of the
2 43rd Brigade; and his deputy, Beljaja; as well as Radovan Arsic --
3 Arsic's deputy were already there. As far as I remember, these were the
4 people who were already there when I arrived.
5 The decision was taken then to take over power with regard to the
6 events mentioned in the dispatch because they were what prompted us to do
7 so. And it was agreed to do it on the same evening. That was Arsic's
8 proposal. But I was afraid that there could be a conflict, because it
9 was a workday, and I was afraid that things might take a bad turn. So my
10 idea was to do it on Saturday, and as they said to me, Simo -- but from
11 whom do you take power on Saturday, because it isn't a working day?
12 So the final decision was to do it in the evening, that is, the
13 night from the 29th through the 30th, and it was done that way.
14 Q. Going back, sir, to the meeting that was held on the
15 25th of April, was a decision made at that meeting as to when the
16 takeover would take place?
17 A. No. That decision wasn't taken then. If you followed the
18 development of events, in all documents and all contacts and
19 conversations there was always the language, if the Serb People in
20 Prijedor municipality should be threatened, then there would be takeover
21 of power, according to Variant B. You can find that in the text,
22 Variant B.
23 And if you allow, and if it's of interest, let me explain that
24 the fear among the Serb People was not irrational. So I could give you a
25 historic overview of events that triggered this apprehension and fear.
1 Q. Well, sir, we don't have the benefit of that much time.
2 Let me --
3 A. It was just a question.
4 Q. Let me take you back. Were there any additional meetings between
5 the 25th of April and the 29th of April, when you attended this meeting
6 at the MUP building in Prijedor?
7 A. Well, from today's vantage point, after 20 years, I couldn't be
8 certain about either.
9 I don't remember that, but I remember that meeting, so if you
10 could remind me, I will -- you'll probably jog my memory.
11 Q. When you attended the meeting at the MUP building, what was the
12 purpose of the meeting?
13 A. I can't really remember what the purpose of the meeting was
14 because I arrived late. Everybody was already there. Police officers
15 and these representatives and everybody. Only later did my guys from the
16 municipality tell me to go to that meeting, and they had gone to that
17 other meeting which -- of which I wasn't aware then. So I don't know
18 what the purpose of the meeting was.
19 Q. Who chaired the meeting at the MUP building?
20 A. The chief did, Telundzic.
21 Q. And who was there representing the SDA?
22 A. Mirza Mujadzic did, and the president of the Municipal Assembly
23 who was elected on behalf of the SDA. I always forget his name.
24 Q. And how were you informed about the subsequent meeting held by
25 the Serb municipal leaders?
1 A. When I came back from the meeting, they called me up and told me
2 to go to the barracks, which I did. And there, everybody was already
3 there, as I have already explained.
4 Q. And you told us who was present at this -- the second meeting,
5 and you mentioned Simo. Who were you referring to when you used that --
6 A. Yes, I did. Simo Drljaca. Because that earlier meeting, I
7 remember, there was the Committee for Internal Organisation when he was
8 appointed to be chief of the MUP.
9 Q. And where did the second meeting take place exactly?
10 A. You mean with the representatives of the Serb authorities to
11 which I came late? Do you mean that one?
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes.
13 A. In the JNA barracks in Prijedor. At Urije.
14 Q. And you've told us that a decision was made there and then to
15 take over the municipality that evening. Were you -- what arrangements
16 were --
17 A. Yes, the following day. That is, the following night.
18 Q. What actual arrangements were decided upon then to take over the
19 municipality?
20 A. Nothing special was decided upon. The TO, which was in existence
21 already, and the police, the Serb police, were supposed to prepare the
22 manpower to perform the takeover, to carry out -- to -- and the
23 institutions should be prepared, and there should be a certain number of
24 people available.
25 Q. Did you decide to meet later on that evening?
1 A. Yes, at 2.00 a.m. We -- we were supposed to consider -- or to
2 assess whether everything was well-organised and whether we should carry
3 out the operation. So we were supposed to check whether everything was
4 we well-prepared and likely to succeed.
5 Q. And did you, in fact, meet again at 2.00 a.m.?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. Where did that meeting take place?
8 A. It took place at Cirkin Polje on the premises of the local
9 commune.
10 Kuruzovic, the commander of the TO, reported to us that
11 everything that was functioning well and that there shouldn't be any
12 problems. Simo reported in respect of the police that everything was
13 well-organised and that there shouldn't be any problems. And when all
14 that was said, the decision was taken that the takeover of power should
15 be carried out at 4.00 a.m.
16 Q. So what happened between 2.00 a.m. and 4.00 a.m. on this night?
17 A. Yes. Well, from 4.00 a.m. till 6.00 a.m., all institutions in
18 the cities were taken over by these formations; that is, the MUP, the
19 municipality, the SDK, the post-office, and so on. And I must point out
20 that there were no problems, no excessive events, and nobody got as much
21 as scratched in the operation, and -- which was a big relief for all of
22 us.
23 Q. Sir, before -- before the actual takeover took place at
24 4.00 a.m., was -- was there a gathering of -- of people, of army and
25 police, at any particular point?
1 A. I explained already that there was no rally at the staff. The
2 Serb police was there, and there was the TO commander; and the chief of
3 the police reported to us that they had mobilized the manpower and
4 prepared everything to carry out the operation. And once they had done
5 that, the decision was taken at 2.00 that the operation should be
6 launched at 4.00.
7 Q. During the -- this period of the takeover, where were you based?
8 A. I was on the premises of the local commune where the decision was
9 taken. I stayed there all the time on duty-service by the telephone,
10 because I had grown up there and my colleagues were involved and they
11 were all armed. But once I heard that everything had gone smoothly, I
12 really was relieved.
13 Q. So when you say you were on duty-service by the telephone, who
14 was reporting in to you at this time?
15 A. Well, I wasn't the operative officer. But I wanted to know. I
16 was nervous and apprehensive. That's why I sat by the telephone all the
17 time, to hear what -- what they had to say, if anybody would call. I was
18 especially interested in the police because of my colleagues. And those
19 who carried out the takeover of power were also my colleagues.
20 Q. And how did you hear that the takeover had been successful?
21 A. Well, reports were submitted. Kuruzovic and Simo Drljaca
22 informed everybody, and they reported on what they had done. They said
23 that they had problems with the guard at the SDK who was asleep. They
24 had trouble waking him. And that was the last facility that was taken
25 over.
1 Q. I'd like you to have a look at a document, sir. It's 65 ter 411,
2 tab 19.
3 MS. PIDWELL: P652.
4 Q. You'll see, sir, this is a dispatch dated the 30th of April from
5 Simo Drljaca to the Banja Luka CSB. And it says:
6 "Based on your dispatch of the above number and date, please be
7 informed ... ten police stations and 1.587 policemen were mobilized."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that -- does that figure seem correct to you?
10 A. I believe it is correct. But that was a dispatch that was sent
11 through police channels. I wasn't familiar with it.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the volume in the witness's headphones
13 please be lowered.
14 THE WITNESS: It's too high.
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. Sir, do you remember giving an interview on the radio about the
17 takeover of the municipality in April 1995?
18 A. Yes, I do remember. There was an announcement. I spoke for the
19 radio on behalf of the people who were taking over the power.
20 MS. PIDWELL: Turn to 65 ter 587, please. It's tab 60.
21 Q. Do you recall listening to the audio version of this interview
22 last week?
23 A. Yes. And I also read this -- yes, these were my words, the words
24 I spoke on the Radio Prijedor broadcast.
25 Q. So you recognised your voice; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. And the context.
2 MS. PIDWELL: If we turn to the second page, please, in both
3 versions.
4 Q. At the end of your speech, sir, you'll see the reporter makes an
5 announcement that that was Mr. Simo Drljaca.
6 A. I can see that. That was a mistake.
7 Q. Was Mr. Simo Drljaca involved in this interview at all?
8 A. I think he was, but I really can't remember. I can't remember
9 Slobodan being there. But having read here that he was, I remember.
10 That was 20 years ago.
11 Q. In any event, the first speaker that we see on this transcript
12 was you?
13 A. Yes, that was me; that's right.
14 Q. And the next speaker, did you recognise the voice of
15 Slobodan Kuruzovic?
16 A. Yes -- yes, yes.
17 Q. And did you also recognise the voice of Mico Kovacevic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your account of the -- the takeover during that radio
20 broadcast, was that an accurate account?
21 A. Well, 99 per cent of it was accurate. One must take into account
22 that we were emotional at the time and the desire to show that the
23 operation was done well.
24 Am I too close? Okay.
25 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask for that transcript to be admitted and
1 marked, please.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1617, Your Honours.
4 MS. PIDWELL:
5 Q. After the takeover had occurred during the night, did you inform
6 anyone of the events and the outcome?
7 A. There was no one to inform. I didn't inform anyone. Well, at
8 least as far as I remember.
9 Q. And after the takeover, did you, in your capacity as SDS
10 president, visit the municipal buildings that day to see who was now in
11 power for yourself?
12 A. Well, you see, that evening when the decision was made to take
13 over power, another decision was reached, namely, that representatives of
14 Serbs that were in charge of certain positions within the Municipal
15 Assembly, Stakic was the president of the Assembly, the secretary, the
16 Executive Committee president, that they should show up at their work at
17 6.00 a.m. so that by 7.00 a.m. they would already be there. And the
18 entrance policeman, I think, was placed, who prevented the president of
19 the municipality to enter the building. And someone else, I think, some
20 other officials who were members of the SDA. Everyone else was at their
21 workplace, as usual.
22 Q. And do you recall how it was announced to the people of Prijedor
23 that the takeover had, in fact, taken place?
24 A. As I have mentioned a moment ago, before this interview and after
25 the takeover of power, an announcement was read over the radio to the
1 citizens with explanations of why the takeover had taken place, and that
2 the situation is calm, that there will be no repression or any problems,
3 that president of municipality and some officials were replaced, others
4 remained working. That was the gist of the announcement. It preceded
5 the interview for the radio. It was repeated on several occasions.
6 Q. And after the takeover, did the weekly meetings of the Municipal
7 Assembly continue?
8 A. Well, the authorities worked within the building of the Municipal
9 Assembly. According to Variant B, they started working independently.
10 The activities within the party were frozen, and the government
11 functioned normally. Of course, there were problems and fears, and
12 therefore there were regular meetings, contacts with the citizens, with
13 representatives of other ethnicities, and it went on for a month, until
14 the said events. Check-points were set up that were organised in 1991 so
15 that, for instance, somebody wouldn't go into areas where there were a
16 majority of the other ethnicity group and caused some excessive events,
17 but there were no problems in that period.
18 Q. Who manned these check-points?
19 A. The police. We had the police doing it, and they had their own
20 check-points in order to prevent somebody going to the other side and
21 causing some problems. That was the main reason for setting up the
22 check-points, to prevent some individuals or groups from doing something
23 unforeseeable. And we didn't have any problems, neither in the period
24 before the takeover, nor after it, all the way until this attack on
25 Prijedor and the said events that followed it.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Can we look at another document. It's 65 ter 413.
2 It's tab 21.
3 We might need the B/C/S a little larger, please.
4 Q. You'll see, sir, a document in front of you which is the minutes
5 of the 2nd Session of the National Defence Council of the Municipal
6 Assembly of Prijedor held on the --
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And you were present?
9 A. Yes. Yeah, I can see. I don't remember it, but I can see here
10 in the minutes that I was there.
11 Q. Firstly, could you explain to us who this body is, the
12 National Defence Council?
13 A. The National Defence Council, well, that was a type of
14 organisation that was taken over from the previous period, from the
15 period of socialist government. It was a provisional organ, and it was
16 tasked with helping the Municipal Assembly and the president of the
17 Assembly in issues related to security. This system existed in former
18 Yugoslavia, and we maintained it after the takeover. As you can see,
19 there was discussion about mobilization here. The decision was reached
20 first, and then there were discussions about how to implement them.
21 MS. PIDWELL: And if we can turn to the next page, please. I