Minutes of Meeting re The Day Centre at Maes y Wennol, Llanidloes, Powys
Held in St Idloes Church at 7.00pm on Thursday 11th June 2015
Revd. Lynda Cowan, in her capacity as Chair of CYTUN (Churches together in Llanidloes), welcomed everyone and thanked them for attending. All those present had some connection with the Day Centre and she knew it was important to everyone present. She thanked those who were representing, or associated with Powys County Council as follows:-
Councillor Darren J Mayor – Portfolio Holder for Adult Social Care and Children's Services
Joy Garfitt – Head of Adult Social Services
Dawn Doherty – Senior Care Manager of Care Delivery
Revd. Cowan also thanked Phyl Davies (Mayor of Llanidloes) and Gareth Morgan (County Councillor) for attending. Graham Jones (County Councillor) was also present and County Councillor Roche Davies joined the meeting later.
Revd. Cowan explained that, as CYTUN, the churches/chapels share going into the Day Centre to take services to members of their congregations and the community in which we all live. To us they are not service users, they are individuals known by name. CYTUN had called this meeting because we care about these people, who are members of our extended family. The Day Centre gives them the opportunity to benefit from the wide range of services available there – it is local, not costly and they are among friends in the heart of our community. They return home at the end of their day there as independent individuals, knowing they are cared for and still central to and valued by our community.
Upon hearing of plans to close the Day Centre CYTUN had set up a petition, placed in local shops and not online, which had been signed by nearly 2,000 individuals concerned about plans for the Day Centre. It therefore made sense to call this meeting now, before any plans are put into place, not least to find out exactly what these plans are. It may be that people are concerned about something that is not about to happen.
Revd. Cowan said that the representatives from Powys County Council (PCC) would now make a presentation of their plans for the Day Centre after which there would be an opportunity for questions from the floor.
Presentation by Councillor Darren Mayor
He thanked those present for attending. He wished to make it clear that he does understand the valued service that the Day Centre represents in this community. He hoped to share PCC's plans and explain the financial pressures upon it and to reassure us that nothing would be done without consultation. He went on to state that PCC has never used the terminology of 'closing Day Centres'. They do, however, need to make some changes to how they are run.
He mentioned Mair Preece, Provider Services Manager, Powys County Council and Michelle Muireasgha, Head of Third Sector Development Team at PAVO (Powys Association of Voluntary Organisations) who were also present at this meeting.
He went on to state that financial pressure is not an excuse, it is a huge challenge. £20m had been saved already. The budget for which he was responsible was some £250m per annum and a further £40m had to be saved over the next two to three years. Westminster have this week passed a further budget reduction to the Welsh Assembly Government that would inevitably be passed on to local authorities.
Powys has seven Day Centres, located in Welshpool, Newtown, Llanidloes, Llandrindod Wells, Crickhowell, Ystradgynlais and Brecon. PCC is not providing an equitable service across the county. Councillor Mayor said that he had been in this post for one year during which he has received a £2.5m cut to the budget. He was therefore looking at how to work with communities to maintain services and to identify whether services were still relevant.
He referred to a recent visit to the Day Centre in Llanidloes when he had stated his intention to engage with service users and the community. In Welshpool the Town Council have taken over provision of the Day Centre service and in Newtown a small group from the community is doing likewise, both receiving limited financial support from PCC. If Llanidloes folk wish to work in a similar way, PCC would welcome this.
Presentation by Joy Garfitt
She thanked Revd. Cowan for the invitation to meet and for the welcome received. She said that PCC want to have a conversation with the people of Llanidloes regarding the future of daytime activities and to identify what types of services for older people the people of Llanidloes want to see. Although the PCC cuts are incredibly severe, indeed the worst she has experienced in her career, a further 10% cut will be made over the next three years. PCC has to find different ways to deliver essential services to older people, which will involve communities loving their own. In future, what do we most value in services to older people ? What is the best way to deliver within budget ? Is there a different way ? How can we do more for less money ? Last year staff numbers were reduced dramatically, further efficiencies were found and some recommissioning was undertaken. These were the easy things – now the harder ones remain to be done. Joy Garfitt stated that her team had researched other ways of delivering services that were being used across the UK and Europe.
She went on to say that some 65 people are presently using the Day Centre here. However, there are 280 people in Llanidloes over the age of 80 years, this figure probably rising to 400 if those in the outlying communities are included. If only 65 out of 400 are using the Day Centre, how are the needs of the others being met ?
PCC would like to return for another meeting to further explore this question. She said that rural Cornwall and Gloucestershire have village agents who are employed part time to find elderly, isolated, lonely people and bring them together in shared activities. PCC would like to meet with groups, e.g. churches, chapels, community groups, that might like to take on the running of the Day Centre for themselves. She said there are many opportunities. Managing change is a challenge, especially if it takes place over a short period of time due to budget cuts. She wanted to leave us with two key questions:-
1) Is there any interest / appetite to discuss alternative solutions, other than the Day Centre ?
2) Are there any community groups interested in running the Day Centre or running activities for one day per week ?
PCC do care about older people and wish that it was not in this situation, but it is and it has to deal with it.
Revd. Cowan then invited questions from the floor:-
(Not all the questioners identified themselves, therefore not all the names of questioners have been included.)
Q & A 1
Q: Margot Jones – had listened to Dawn's presentation at the Day Centre a few weeks ago and she was confused. If Councillor Mayor is not using the term 'closure of the Day Centre', but an alternative way to run it is not found, does that not represent closure ?
A: Councillor Mayor replied that the budget cuts last year had indicated that it would be possible to keep day centres open, but the situation now means that PCC needs the help of communities to achieve this.
Q: Margot Jones asked again, if there is no community help will Llanidloes Day Centre close ?
A: Councillor Mayor – yes, it would close, but PCC will not abandon people – it will find other, new ways to continue to support them.
Q: Margot Jones stated that Llanidloes cannot be compared with Welshpool or Newtown in this regard, as Llanidloes is in a different position both financially and population-wise.
A: Councillor Mayor asked in return what about the elderly in rural villages who are not getting the opportunity to attend the Day Centre – they could be offered something better.
Q: Margot Jones said that what we have here in Llanidloes is wonderful, PCC should be proud of it and try to replicate it, not close it.
A: Councillor Mayor replied that he would be happy to replicate it if he had the money to do so, but he doesn't. He would be very happy for the Day Centre to continue to run if the local community groups will take it on.
Q & A 2
Q: It was asked: If the Day Centre closes, how will PCC find the money to “not abandon individuals in the community”, if it does not have the money to keep the Day Centre open ?
A: Joy Garfitt replied that they will have to look for different ways – perhaps using volunteers or a mix of volunteers and paid staff. This particular budget will drop by £7.5m and the overall PCC budget by £40m – they will have to find ways to do more for less. The reduction in building overheads might be spent on people, working with churches / chapels and community groups. She reiterated that we have find a different way because nobody here this evening can influence the amount of money available.
Q & A 3
Q: The question is how are we going to find the money to keep this Day Centre open in Llanidloes. The questioner stated that PCC waste money, making reference to new kitchens and bathrooms that were widely fitted to properties when they were not needed. The questioner asked PCC to re-prioritise its spending in order to find the £200k p.a. required to run this Day Centre.
A: Councillor Mayor replied that new kitchens and bathrooms are required under the Welsh Housing Standard that is imposed by the Welsh Assembly Government – it is their money, not the Council's. He went on to say that PCC has saved money through staff management cuts and are looking elsewhere for further savings. It still does not have £200k p.a. to keep the Day Centre open, but it could stay open with community support.
Joy Garfitt added that PCC could put some money into the Day Centre, but not full funding. She also said that people should be aware that many budgets are ring-fenced and money cannot be saved under one budget to be spent on another. She cannot spend other departments' budgets. She asked how many of those present had access to the internet, because from this Autumn a budget simulator will be available online whereby individuals can create the council budget they would wish to see and the council will use this input to inform their own budget decisions. She warned that those attempting this exercise would find that it is harder than they might imagine.
Revd. Cowan stated that, if PCC thinks that the churches and chapels have either the funds or suitable facilities to run / help with provision of services for the elderly, she would suggest that they research this further, looking at the falling congregations, ageing population and later retirement age resulting in a generation trying to care for their own grandchildren and ageing parents whilst still in employment themselves. Neither do the buildings have the necessary facilities to care safely for the elderly. This statement received support from the floor.
Q & A 4
Q: Dawn Doherty asked about a community asset transfer – a grant had been given to the Day Centre in Welshpool – if a social enterprise firm were set up in Llanidloes, would a grant be available ? Also, volunteers are great, but paid staff are trained and know what they are doing.
A: Joy Garfitt replied that a transfer of buildings would be a possibility. There was no comment regarding the trained staff.
A comment was received from the floor, from a care worker who advocated trying to get a community group together in order to retain this important service.
Q & A 5
Q: If it now costs £200k p.a. to run the Day Centre, how much would be available to support a community group that took it on ?
A: Joy Garfitt replied that the budget for the county is just under half a million pounds. She could not quote an exact percentage, it would depend upon costs and plans, but PCC would work with a group to identify their costs of service provision.
Michelle Muireasgha of PAVO explained that she was not paid by PCC, but that PAVO support volunteers and community organisations across Powys. She works with the group in Newtown and is in touch with the Town Council in Welshpool regarding the running of those day centres. She is in favour of keeping day centres open and knows that Llanidloes traditionally has worked to resolve its own problems as and when they have arisen. She said that if Llanidloes can get a group together to run the Day Centre here, then PAVO will support that group and their advice is free.
Q & A 6
Q: Councillor Gareth Morgan talked of the history of Maes y Wennol and the Day Centre, being the pride of the community and that this situation had resulted in great sadness. He had looked at the figures and believed that the day centre could be run for a lot less money, but that it should not be run like 'Fred Carno's Circus'; it must remain a professionally run organisation with professional, trained personnel dealing with people who need specialised care. Volunteers are valued and it is a rewarding role, but trained, professional people must be in position. He asked how much money was being provided by PCC to the groups now running the day centres in Welshpool and Newtown ? He also asked, given that PCC own the Maes y Wennol / Day Centre building in Llanidloes which is leased to BUPA, would the Day Centre premises be made available free of charge to any community group that might be formed to run it and would the rates on the building be waived ? He also asked, assuming that the Day Centre was presently run with the minimum staff level, how many professional staff would be required to care for such vulnerable adults ?
A: Councillor Mayor replied that charitable status could result in an exemption from rates and agreed that the Day Centre could be run for less money if it were not under the PCC umbrella, this being the nature of local authority operations across the country. He repeated that PAVO would work with with a community group to address the level of trained, professional staff required.
Q: Councillor Morgan also asked whether PCC had asked BUPA whether they might like to take over running the Day Centre.
A: Joy Garfitt stated that regarding free use of the space, she would do all in her power to make it so. She believed that the present staffing level was the minimum requirement and this was confirmed by Mair Preece.
Comment was made by Derrick Pugh who spoke of his personal experience of the Day Centre through the care received by his late father who had been bed-ridden, was taken by Dial-a-Ride one day a week to the Day Centre and would speak of his time there for days after each visit. He referred to Llanidloes' previous and successful fight to keep its hospital open and expressed the hope that the community would find equal success in fighting to keep its Day Centre open. He also expressed concern whether PCC had always spent its budget wisely, referring in particular to consultancy fees.
Q & A 7
Q: The Mayor of Llanidloes, Phyl Davies, urged Councillor Mayor to cease worrying about the 400 elderly people not attending the Day Centre, but to focus on the 65 that were attending. He assured Councillor Mayor that those who need to attend do so and that, at present, that is the 65 people who do attend. He asked PCC to please help Llanidloes to keep what it has, because that is what is needed.
A: Councillor Mayor replied that he fully understood the feeling of the room.
Q & A 8
Q: Sandra Wheeler stated that using other buildings, e.g. churches and chapels was unrealistic, given the costs to install the required equipment and the fact that churches and chapels are struggling to heat and maintain their buildings for their present use. She added that the Day Centre already has all the required facilities and can be efficiently heated, so why move services elsewhere ? She also stated that even if willing volunteers were to be found, they might not be young or fit enough to undertake the work required.
A: Councillor Mayor and Joy Garfitt repeated that PCC and PAVO would help and advise on these issues.
Q & A 9
Q: Revd. Jenny Garrard expressed concern about accountability and the future. If a small group is found now to take over and run the Day Centre, but finds after two years that it cannot maintain that commitment, who will take it on thereafter ? She stated that this is a vital service that should be in the hands of our elected representatives, whom we can continue to approach with any concerns in the years to come.