EABO

Engineers
Architects
Building Officials
A Joint Committee of:
Professional Engineers
Ontario
Consulting Engineers Ontario
Ontario Association of
Architects
OntarioBuilding
Officials Association
Large Municipalities Chief Building Officials Group
Toronto Area Chief Building Officials Committee
c/o Professional Engineers Ontario
101 - 40 Sheppard Avenue West
Toronto, Ontario
M2N 6K9
Tel: (416) 224-1100
Fax: (416) 224-1579 /

Minutes of Meeting Held onMay 5, 2011

Held at PEO Offices
40 Sheppard Avenue West, Toronto, Ontario
Attendees:David Craddock, OAA (Chair)
David Dengler, PEO
David Tipler, CEO
Bob Abrahams, OAA
Gerry Conway, OAA
John Dorris, OBOA
Gary Pask, OAA
José Vera, PEO
Michael Seiling, OBOA
Regrets:Jason Schmidt-Shoukri, TACBOC
Ted Tipping, LMCBO
1.0Opening of Meeting
The meeting opened at 12:50 p.m. with 7 members of the Committee in attendance. Two additional members arrived later in the meeting.
D. Craddock reported that B. Ennis is moving on and will no longer be part of the committee.
D. Craddock introduced G. Pask whom is the Policy Practice Specialist at OAA. G. Pask offers support liaison to OAA committees and task forces, looks at policies, stays in touch with practice advisors, and makes connections with projects outside OAA.
D. Craddock introduced J. Vera whom is the Standards and Guidelines Development Coordinator at PEO.
2.0Minutes/Notes from Previous Meeting
Item 3.0 Building and Development Branch Update
J. Dorris noted that there has been substantial lobbying from the Canadian Cancer Society to increase radon protection, but believes this project might not go ahead.
D. Craddock stated that in technical committee meetings radon protection has been shelved, since there is still research that needs to be done. The federal government needs to assess what areas in Canada have problems with radon levels. Underground ventilation has been proposed as a solution.
J. Dorris added that according to findings so far Ontario has one the lowest radon levels among the provinces.
D. Craddock added that the National Building Codewill include radon protection in areas deemed to be appropriate (i.e. areas that have relatively high radon levels such as Saskatchewan, Manitoba and in Ontario possibly Sudbury).
Item 5.0 Coordination Between Professional Designers
J. Dorris noted that a few of the major engineering firms acting as consultants are calling architects to do some work, but not actas the prime consultant. In Milton the coordination of the consulting team has been done by owners, or landscape companies or companies specializing in planning, but not by professionals, such as engineers or architects. Furthermore, J. Dorris noted that it would be helpful to find out what is PEO’s position with regards to professional engineers working as coordinating consultants.
G. Corway mentioned that some architects are doing coordinating work, but are not being paid for this work. D. Tippler added that there has been a reduction in the amount of services in order to reduce fees. Furthermore, J. Dorris noted that the public needs to be aware that they are getting the services they pay for.
D. Craddock suggested moving to the next topicsince this issue will be covered in agenda Item 4.
Item 6.0 General Review of Construction
G.Corway expressed concern about item 6.3 “professional engineers have a duty to review construction even if there is no building permit”, since a visit to a job site with no permit is considered a violation of the law. M. Seiling reported that building officials are concerned about this issue. D. Craddock, J.Dorris and M. Seiling stated it would be helpful to get more information about this issue from the PEO.
D. Craddock suggested moving to the next topic since this issue will be covered in agenda Item 5.
Item 9.0 Complete Applications Update
M. Seiling requested to change the following sentence from the previous minutes:
“M. Seiling reported that there will be not change to this section.”
To the following sentence:
“M. Seiling reported that he is not aware of any pending changes by the Ministry to this section.”
A motion was made to make the above change to the minutes of February 24, 2011.
Moved by: D. Craddock Seconded by: M. Seiling CARRIED
G. Pask reported that the minutes will be placed in a new user friendly EABO website.
3.0Municipalities as Leaders in Energy Efficiency
G. Pask reported that there is an intention in OAA to present software energy modelling as part of the Architect’s matrix. Furthermore, the Sustainable Building Environment Committee will bring to the forefront clarification to how OAA responds to code changes.
J. Dorris reported that new ASHRAE standards will require architects and engineers to state how resource conservation was part of the design. G. Conway added that a key question will be, “what is the achieved performance?” Furthermore, the new version of RETScreen includes energy efficiency in buildings.
Action: G. Pask to arrange a presentation from the OAA group at the next meeting on this topic.
4.0Coordination Between Professional Designers
D. Craddock asked the committee if EABO should make recommendations to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing (MMAH). J. Dorris mentioned that the MMAH does not get involved with telling the professions what to do.
M. Seiling recommended sending a letter to MMAH from EABO about this issue. D. Craddock mentioned that the letter needs to identify the need for a person to do coordination. J. Dorris added that coordination needs to be defined and expectations need to be outlined. A coordinator reviews the different documents and says if they meshed. Furthermore, EABO should list in the letter the requirements of a coordinator such as, certifications and professional background. B. Abrahams added that currently coordination is not being done by professionals.
G. Pask asked the committee as “devil’s advocate” if project managers can be coordinators. D. Tipler stated that project managers cannot be technical coordinators. B. Abrahams mentioned that whoever signs has contractual ability and is technically the coordinator. G. Pask added that the “coordinator” needs a definition and this definition must state if only architects and professional engineers can be a coordinator or can project managers be coordinators as well.
G. Conway mentioned that an architect can put coordination as a service in the contract. B. Abrahams asked if coordination can be excluded from the contract. G. Conway replied that there are owners asking architects to remove coordination from the contract, and consequently no one does the coordination.
D. Dengler recommended that coordination be included in the General Review Commitment Certificate (GRCC). M. Seiling added that the GRCC form could state who the lead coordinator is. G. Conway recommended that the GRCC form could contain an extra box for the coordinator’s information.
D. Craddock listed two items to be done:
1)Find out from OAA and PEO their interest in defining coordination.
2)A letter to MMAH from EABO requesting that coordination is reflected in the building code and stating that it must be done by an architect or a professional engineer.
Item 2 will be started after item 1 is completed.
Action: G. Pask will obtain feedback from OAA with respect to the coordination issue.
Action: J. Vera will obtain feedback from PEO with respect to the coordination issue.
D. Dengler pointed out that changes to the Ontario Building Code are done every 5 years. There is a 2006 Building Code and a new one expected to be released this year. Consequently, it may be some time until coordination is added to the Building Code. M. Seiling added that there will be amendments to the Building Code after it is released; therefore, coordination may be able to be added to the new Code.
5.0General Review of Construction
As per the previous minutes, the General Review Commitment Form was edited due to objections from PEO members claiming that professional engineers have a duty to review construction even if there is no building permit.
There was a very lively discussion regarding this issue. G. Conway stated that this issue is problematic since aiding and abetting is illegal, unless construction has stopped. M. Seiling expressed that Building Officials will be disappointed to learn about this issue. D. Craddock mentioned that a field review cannot be done until a permit is issued. G. Conway added that permits should be posted on site and professionals working on site should be looking for the permit.
Action: J. Vera will obtain an explanation from PEO with respect to this issue on reviews done by professional engineers when there is no building permit.
6.0Structural Requirements for Solar Collector Installations
D. Tipler reported that he completed the letter to Denise Evans at MMAH and sent a copy to B. Ennis for his review. D. Tipler has not received feedback yet from B. Ennis.
Action: J. Vera will follow up with B. Ennis to ensure that the letter to MMAH is reviewed.
D. Tipler summarized how the dead weight of solar collector installations can affect the seismic characteristics of buildings.
7.0Information
- New PEO Standards and Guidelines (attachments)
D. Craddock reported that the following new PEO Standards and Guidelines related to buildings have been released:
1)Professional Standard – Use of Building Code Compliance Data Matrix by Professional Engineers Submitting Drawings for Permits for Buildings Subject to Section 12(6)2 of the Professional Engineers Act
2)Performance Standards – Ontario Regulation 260/08 made under the Professional Engineers Act
3)Guideline – Professional Engineers Providing Services for Demolition of Buildings and other Structures
M. Seiling mentioned that the above Guideline makes clear the responsibilities with respect to demolition services.
G. Conway recommended that an item “v. Energy Performance” be added to the Engineers’ Matrix in order to be consistent with new requirements with regards to resource conservation.
8.0New Business
M. Seiling reported that there have been cases were Building Officials have been asking professional engineers and architects to submit a Schedule 1 Designer information document, although this document is not required. M. Seiling added that if anyone in the meeting hears of such cases they should let him know. D. Tipler mentioned that he was recently asked for a Schedule 1 Designer information document. D. Dengler proposed that D. Tipler call M. Seiling about this issue.
9.0Adjournment and Date of Next Meeting
The meeting adjourned at 3:18 pm.
The next meeting will be held tentatively on June 16, 2011 at 12:00 pm if the Sustainability Task Force is available.

1.