Date:1st October 2009 at 1pm
Location:Holyrood, Committee Room 1
Present:
A4E Scotland / Gerry Croall / Scottish Conservative Party / Gavin Brown MSPAlliance of Sector Skills Councils Scotland / Jacqui Hepburn / SCQF / Aileen Ponton
Association of Accounting Technicians / Patricia McDonagh / Scottish Screen / Scott Donaldson
Association of Scotland's Colleges / Neil Cuthbert / Scottish Training Federation / Mary Naysmyth /Stuart Leitch
Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland / Shona Matthews / Scottish Union Learning / Sylvia O’Grady
Construction Skills Scotland / Philip Ford / Scotch Whisky Association / Alison Galbraith
Economic Development Association [Scotland] / Anne Meikle / SECTT / Alan Ross
Learning Teaching Scotland / Stuart Ritchie / Skills Development Scotland / Stephanie Young
Lifelong Learning UK / Marian Healy / Skills for Logistics / Sheila McCullough
NSCC / John McKinney / Universities Scotland / Susannah Lane/ Heather Sloane
Oil and Gas Academy [OPITO] / Gillian Black / Unite the Union / Walton Pantland
Proskills / Linda McCourt
Non-members Attending:
Barnardo’s Scotland / Ann Manzi/ Sheelagh Scott/ Lesley Bollan/ Craig Taylor/Leanne Millar/ Paul Candow/ Mark Ballard / ICS / Joanne McManusEdexcel / John Dick / Loch Lomond & Trossachs Community Partnership / Ron Dalton
Apologies received:
Barnardo’s Scotland / Elizabeth McShane / Economic Development Association [Scotland] / Elaine Bone/ Irene BellBio Reliance / Louise Rice / E-Skills / Michael Kowbel
Bio Industry Association Scotland / Dr Sarah Goulding / Federation of Small Businesses / Martin McIntyre
BT Openreach / Susan McLaren / Lantra / Willie Fergusson
CBI Scotland / Iain Ferguson / Menzies Distribution / Steve Birell
Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland / Simon Thompson / OPITO / David Doig
COGENT SSC / Barry Neilson / Skills Development Scotland / Willy Roe
Construction Skills Scotland / Graeme Ogilvy / Skills for Logistics / Chris Campbell
Creative & Cultural Skills / Caroline Parkinson / Unionlearn / Harry Cunningham
Gavin Brown [GB] welcomed all of those in attendance and noted that interest in the CPG continues to grow. GB noted however that there were a number of apologies for this meeting with several members, including his co-convenor John Park, attending the funeral of Bill Speirs. The CPG was very grateful to the Association of Accounting Technicians for sponsoring the lunch and refreshments. GB invited their representative Patricia McDonagh to say a few words about the work of the AAT.
AAT is a diverse membership body representing over 120,000 members. AAT has been in existence for 25 years and is supported worldwide with a strong base in Scotland. Members work in all manner of organisations and demand for the AAT qualifications have increased by 12.5% in recent years with 1 in 10 of their members under 18. Ultimately AAT strives to deliver competent accounting technicians and offers a full programme of CPD, together with an ethical code of conduct. AAT prides itself on listening to the market which has led to the development of a suite of e-assessment and e-learning. Its work has been recognised internationally having been appointed as a Technical Advisor to the International Federation of Accountants’ [IFAC] International Accounting Education Standards Board. AAT has tabled the paper: The Impact of the Separate Qualifications Frameworks in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland on Skills Development and requests that the CPG consider this in more detail at a future meeting. The paper will be circulated to all Members for comment. More detailed information about AAT and its work can be found in Appendix 2.
Agenda Items:
1Welcome:
In formally opening the meeting GB thanked Patricia again for AAT’s sponsorship and for her paper, asking whether any members had questions. Aileen Ponton commented that the paper raises some important question and recommended the inclusion to a future agenda, offering her own support in developing the discussion. GB agreed to this and encouraged other members to review the paper when circulated.
2Minutes of the previous meeting:
There were no points of accuracy or omission raised.
3Matters arising:
There had been one action for the Co-convenors to raise several points with the Cabinet Secretary for Education & Learning. GB proposed to cover this under Agenda Item 5.
4Case Study – Barnardo’s Works Project
4.1GB welcomed representatives of Barnardo’s Scotland on behalf the CPG and invited them to inform the Group about the project Barnardo’s Works as an example of an important skills development programme working with disadvantaged individuals.
4.2Ann Manzi was delighted that the CPG were interested in their project and provided a background presentation on the project [see Appendix 3 for copies of the slides]. Developed from the original programme Youthbuild, started in Paisley, Barnardo’s Works Dundee has been running since December 2007. The project works with young people overcome a diverse range of barriers to employment and is partly public funded. However this funding runs out in March 2010 and the team are working very hard to secure the future of the project. Ann commented on the support from their employer partners and in particular the support of their initial partner Scottish & Southern Energy [SSE]. Whilst the project cannot guarantee employment at the end of each programme, they have secured a commitment from employers to a guaranteed interview. Supported by a project worker to assist the individual in dealing with the issues behind their particular barriers to employment the programme runs with an initial 13 weeks of training to prepare them for the work. Initial many of the jobs offered through the programme were manual however with the changing job market the programme now sees more administrative and service roles on offer. The presentation highlighted the success of the programme with 84% moving into employment. However the team need to build their database of employers willing to participate in the scheme.
Ann then introduced some of the successful scheme graduates. Craig explained that the programme had supported him in achieving an apprenticeship with SSE. Now, rather than living on state benefits he had a career and ambition. Craig raised the point that he had overcome the issue of seeing his wage drop from coming off the initial training programme when he had received minimum wage, to accept the apprenticeship at a lower wage. He understood that the opportunities the apprenticeship offered was worth the change in circumstances but that did not make the adjustment any easier.
Paul was pleased to announce that he had just been offered a job. Before coming on the programme he had applied for many jobs but never received responses. He had tried various routes to gain an apprenticeship but without any success. Barnardo’s Works put him down a different development route and gave him his first true opportunity to show his potential. Paul highlighted one issue; having suffered an injury during his training which prevented him attending the training, he was taken off the jobseekers allowance and received sickness benefit instead. Once fit to return to the programme the bureaucracy involved in getting back onto the correct benefit took 5 calls and 2 weeks to sort out. Ann commented that Paul’s employer had been very understanding; she did not doubt that others, particularly in the economic climate might not be so accommodating and that those on apprenticeships are in danger of being marginalised.
Leanne had become a carer for her mother, had no qualifications or confidence. The project had allowed her to develop and achieve goals. She had benefited from the project support worker who for her represented someone impartial to talk to, giving her the confidence to go out and get a job. Her advice to others on similar programmes was to stick with it. Leanne enjoys her job, is confident about her abilities and is ambitious to gain qualifications and a promotion.
4.3GB thanked all the presenters and was very pleased to see someone who, in the current climate, was so happy and loving their job. He was intrigued to find out how each of the participants had come across the scheme? Leanne had been advised of it through the jobcentre, Craig heard about it by word of mouth and Paul encountered it at a job fair.
4.4Mary Naysmyth of Scottish Training Federation, with reference to Paul’s case, asked whether the transition from the initial training to work was a difficult barrier to hurdle. Ann explained that the two parts of the benefits department don’t speak to each other. There was no scope for negotiation or flexibility. In this case they were very reliant on the understanding of the employer. Mary then queried whether there was any bridge funding that could be accessed in similar circumstances? Ann confirmed that a hardship fund did exist but it was not needed in Paul’s case where the problem was not the funds but the bureaucracy in moving from one benefit to another.
4.5John McKinney of NSCC, in commenting on the need for more employers to join the scheme explained that a large majority of construction work is undertaken by specialist contractors. He advised that Barnardo’s may wish to look to the specialists who ultimately offer employment and training. He noted the scaffolding trade as a particular example and one which had actively been promoting opportunities.
4.6GB noted the impressive success statistics but wondered what happened to the remaining 16%? Ann explained that some employers do not have the capacity to keep their trainees on. Some go on to college, and Dundee has an employer pipeline to help ensure no-one falls through the net. Sheelagh Scott cited one case where the individual had come off the programme due to mental health issues but that it was hoped they would rejoin the programme soon – Ann added that the scheme allows people to return to the programme as the focus is on support into employment.
4.7Marian Healy of LLUK asked whether there were any public sector placements. Ann referred back to the presentation which illustrated support within Dundee City Council and the Care Commission, NHS Tayside and the Social Services Council. Marian noted the merit in building the bank of employers. Sheelagh explained that this was part of the role of the project’s Workforce Development Advisers. They were forward planning and engaging with as many employers as possible to spread the word. Ann added it is difficult to get the required engagement: a recent information event to which 160 were invited was attended by only 2 organisations. Barnardo’s would welcome any opportunity to engage with new employers. The project was potentially going to be rolled out in other Scottish cities and so they welcomed any support in reaching more employers.
GB thanked all the speakers again for presenting to the Group and felt their project had given members much to think about.
5Response from the Cabinet Secretary for Education & Lifelong Learning
GB provided some background to the issues arising from the last meeting which had led to the convenors writing to the Cabinet Secretary. This letter together with the response had been circulated to members in advance of the meeting and GB requested any comments.
5.1Jacqui Hepburn of the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils noted that the realisation of apprenticeships expressed in the response had not been meant. Jacqui noted that there was latent demand however it was possible that overbidding from training providers was part of the problem. An additional issue was the need for more bite sized and flexible learning to address the actual skills requirements of employers. To GB’s question of what is blocking the access to this learning, Jacqui noted that, in addition to information on the demand for apprenticeships, the Alliance had presented evidence to the Cabinet Secretary on this matter in June and had received a holding letter. In the meantime the Alliance will be presenting its findings in its second report on the economic downturn. This will be circulated to all members when published. Jacqui noted that whilst the importance of modern apprenticeships was not in doubt, for some sectors they were only part of the answer to addressing the skills gap. GB suggested there were perhaps good reasons for the lack of response to date, however when the convenors respond to the Cabinet Secretary’s letter they should also include these concerns.
5.2Philip Ford of Construction Skills Scotland called for increased flexibility in funding for qualifications. There was insufficient allocation for Construction Skills new level 2 Modern Apprenticeships for the Civil Engineering and Specialists sectors. The funding allocated for this qualification from Skills Development Scotland is only £1,500 for adults aged 19+ and £3,300 for candidates aged 16-18. The qualification can cost up to £7,000 for some occupations within the MA, of greatest significance when considered with regard to addressing the skills and training needs required on the construction on the new Forth Crossing. Phillip voiced the concern that the lack of flexibility around funding for adult learners will seriously affect the uptake of this award on such a key project. GB asked whether there had been correspondence with the Government on this matter and Philip welcomed any support that could come from the Convenors.
5.3GB asked whether any other members had comments relating to the response from the Cabinet Secretary and suggested that these could also be submitted via the Secretary.
6A.O.C.B.
6.1Feedback from the CPG’s Festival of Politics event: On behalf of John Park, Shona Matthews provided a brief overview of the event. It was felt that the event had been very successful and had sold out well in advance, indicating a real interest in the work the Group is undertaking. A summary is provided in Appendix 4. Shona thanked members who had been able to attend for their support and was sure that some of the questions raised at the event would provide useful discussions for the CPG in the future.
6.2Economic Development Association Scotland: EDAS had held a very successful series of events in June under the title Road to Recovery. Hard copy summaries were tabled and a web link will be circulated with the minutes. Members were encouraged to review the key findings and any queries or comments can be forwarded to EDAS via the Secretary.
6.3Loch Lomond & Trossachs Community Partnership: Ron Dalton explained the initiative of this Community Partnership is to encourage an increase in uptake of apprenticeships within the region. The project is showing signs of success placing 17 apprentices within 15 small businesses. The project has sourced funds from the private sector and has focused on the importance of getting apprenticeships in micro businesses. An interim report is to be published and will be circulated to members.
6.4Clause 35 of the Education, Skills, Children and Learning BillAct: Gillian Black representing OPITO sought guidance from fellow members in answering an issue raised by Exxon Mobil. They were concerned that Clause 35, limiting the time spent on giving apprenticeship careers advice in schools also applied in Scotland. Gillian believed MSPs have spoken out against the Clause and questioned whether the Clause protected the interests of the HE sector? Jenny Duncan of John Park’s office was able to advise that the Clause only applies in England & Wales having researched this in detail when preparing John Park’s Apprenticeship Bill in 2008.
6.5Cluster reports from Alliance of Sector Skills Councils: Jacqui Hepburn noted that, in addition to the aforementioned second cross sector report on the economic downturn, four cluster reports on specific sectors would also be published, as well as an updated report on labour market profiles covering all 25 sectors. It was agreed that these would be circulated to members in due course.
6.6Anne Meikle asked whether it was known if Skills Development Scotland had issued an equality assessment of the impact of apprenticeships which she was aware had been promised? Stephanie Young of SDS confirmed that this was in track and due to be completed this year. Jacqui Hepburn also added that all submissions for developing skills frameworks must show how equality assessments were being made.
6.7Neil Cuthbert of Scotland’s Colleges made the Group aware of a parliamentary debate taking place immediately after the meeting on the role of colleges in the economic recovery. Scotland’s Colleges have produced a new publication entitled Skills for a Successful Scotland in advance of the debate and Neil was very happy to share that with fellow members.
7Close and date of next meeting:
As there was no further business for the Group to discuss GB asked members to note the date of the next meeting as Wednesday, 9th December at 1pm, in Committee Rm. 2. GB thanked all, in particular the representatives from Barnardo’s, for their participation and formally closed the meeting.