Minutes of SAAF Meeting
Held on Fri 21st June 2013
Glenmore Lodge
Aviemore
Attendees:
Members
Barry Edmondson Abernethy Trust
Colin Matheson Scottish Orienteering
Dave Horrocks Adventure Scotland
Debbie Williams Glencoe Outdoor Centre
Dougie Shannon Glasgow City Council OE Services
George Reid
John Hamilton
Mike Masino
Tina Cuthbertson Lochaber Outdoor Learning Partnership
Will Manners Outlook Expeditions
Observers
Alan Smith IOL
Jane Campbell Morrison RYA Scotland (Chair)
Gavin Howat HSE
Peter Thompson Skills Active
Secretary
John Armstrong
Action Register
Activity / Initials / Status101 non Emergency Number / DS / To be presented at Sept meeting
Gear hire issues / TC / To be presented at Sept meeting
Apprenticeships item for website / DW / To be completed at earliest opportunity
Guidance for Overseas Expeditions / WM/ NM / To be completed at earliest opportunity
SAAF Mission Statement / JCM / To be presented at Sept meeting
DofE liaison re use of regular site / JCM/ GR / To be completed at earliest opportunity
1 Welcome and Apologies
Jane Campbell Morrison gave a warm welcome to all present.
Apologies had been received from:
Ben Starkie
Caroline Warburton Wild Scotland
Iain Peter
Ian Ross AHOEC & Lagganlia
Nick Cole Outdoor Angus
Tony Shepherd Outward Bound Loch Eil (Vice Chair)
Bob Kinnaird Glenmore Lodge
Bob Telfer AALS
Kirstine Hale Skills Active
Nigel Marshall SAPOE
2 Approval of Agenda and AOB items
Several additional agenda items were discussed prior to the agenda being adopted.
Gear hire issues – Tina Cuthbertson to produce a paper for next meeting
101 non Emergency Number – Dougie Shannon to present at next meeting
Changes to HSE First Aid provider approval – discuss under AOB
3 Minutes of Previous Meeting
Draft minutes from the last meeting held at Glenmore Lodge on 15th Mar 2012 had been circulated.
The meeting agreed the minutes as an accurate record.
4 Matters Arising
Debbie Williams will continue her work on Apprenticeships and produce an item for the website.
Nigel Marshall and Will Manners still plan to meet to discuss guidance for Overseas Expeditions
JCM is continuing work on a SAAF Mission statement
DofE overuse of popular camping areas had been raised by JCM with the National Access forum who reported no concerns had been identified but agreed to keep an eye on the situation.
TC was aware of issues of overuse in eg the Great Glen
Three key questions were
1. Do the DofE have a system to manage the number of groups using a particular area at the same time?
2. How do DofE promote the Leave No Trace philosophy?
3. What strategy do DofE have in place to manage the increasing numbers?
JCM agreed to liaise with George Reid to seek answers to the above.
5 Scottish Adventure Activities Working Group
The last meeting had been held in Edinburgh on 21st April 2013 during which it became clear that it was not possible to draft a definition which would encompass all the activities which should be captured by licensing without unintentionally including others which should not be included. The conclusion thus was to draft a ‘list’.
This exercise was scheduled to be carried out over two days, 13th &14th June. On 7th June the group were advised that due to the unavailability of key Scottish Government staff the meeting was postponed, as yet, no new date had been proposed.
JCM asked that discussion focussed on identifying key issues which SAAF representatives could take to the new meeting.
During debate the following points were made:-
The licence should be available to all regardless of statutory position
There should be regular review of activities covered
If the aim is to protect the user what is the relevance of whether payment is taken or not
People should be allowed to understand what the options are with regard to drafting the new system.
The current approach appeared to be to implement the existing system in a Scotland setting. There was strong support to adopt a ‘clean sheet’ approach
It was noted that the SAAWG members were not comfortable with the development work being contracted out. However there was support around the table for Barry Edmonson’s proposal that SAAF offer to take on the work and are appropriately funded to resource the project.
6 HSE Update
Gavin Howat took the opportunity to update the meeting from an HSE perspective.
No progress to report on the future of licensing in England since the last meeting of AAIAC. Business as usual until further notice.
Scottish Government is starting to consider what the shape of the regime will be in Scotland. A working group has been formed and has met once so far.
HSE officials remain in contact with colleagues at Edinburgh and Cardiff.
Tony Almond has replaced Clare McNicholas.
Licensing Information
Licences in force at the end of April 2013: 1214
Revocations and Refusals
12 applications or renewals considered for refusal or revocation since April 2012. Ultimately 3 refused and 1 application withdrawn.
Recurring reasons:
• Failure to have adequate evidence of staff competency
• Failure to have adequate systems for checking equipment
• Inadequate management arrangements
• Failure to pay fee on time – this will always result in a refusal or revocation as a licence may not be issued unless the fee is paid
Enforcement Action
• Prince’s Club charged with corporate manslaughter after death of Mari-Simon Cronje who was struck by a water ski boat (CPS/Local Authority prosecution)
• Manningtree High School fined after 14 year old pupil fell more than 4 meters from a climbing wall while learning lead climbing. Pupils had been inadequately trained, there was not an adequate safety management system in place and the instructor was not competent to teach lead climbing. A fine of £9000 plus £1641 in costs was imposed.
7 SAAF Working Groups Update
Website – The new website is now up and running. It’s success will be dependent on keeping it up to date with current topics and news. Please forward information to JA
The Myth busting project is now live on the website, please keep forwarding items to George Reid or JA.
Conference – Mike Masino had identified some suitable venues but the event was on hold until there was some significant developments in Adventure Licensing.
Survey Project – This was not a project that the Scottish Government felt they could fund. It was agreed the project would be a useful piece of work but would be unable to proceed without a funding source.
Peter Thompson advised that the Outdoor Employment group were about to launch a survey which could be of use. He will forward the relevant information to JA.
8 SAAF Funding
Discussions with the Scottish Government were ongoing with regard to future funding.
9 Skills Active
Peter Thompson gave an overview of four projects SkillsActive are currently involved with
· Tourism Skills Investment Plan in conjunction with Skills Development Scotland
· National Occupational Standards: Review of “Outdoor Programmes” Standards (L5)
· SkillsActive Outdoor Adventure Workforce Development Protocol
· AAIAC and SkillsActive register for the Outdoor Adventure Sector
More information is in the attached paper.
The meeting agreed it’s willingness for SAAF to be contacted with regard to contributing to the Technical Expert Group
With reference to the Register project, it was noted that providers on the register will hold an AAIAC recognised safety accreditation, which will have independent inspection at it’s core.
It was noted that OE teaching qualifications are now recognised by the GTC.
However there is a fundamental need to have NGB’s on the SQF framework and currently the cost of doing this is prohibitive
10 AOB
Debbie Williams advised that HSE were proposing to discontinue their current practice of approving First Aid Providers. After some discussion it was felt that SAAF had no particular issue with this.
Will Manners reported that he is a member of a working group considering setting up a ‘near misses database.
Key points included
· Is there a need for this?
· Stats would be collated anonymously
· It could help to develop good practice
· Could help in identifying training needs
· Could be of benefit to the Insurance industry
John Hamilton advised that the Mtn Bike Leader Award scheme was being reviewed by British Cycling and Scottish Cycling. There would be likely implications with regard to how the award is delivered and by whom.
11 DATES OF NEXT MEETING
20th Sept 2013 Glenmore Lodge
6th Dec 2013 Glenmore Lodge
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