TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW
with
PROFESSOR COLIN JONES
Key: TK Tim KELLY
HN Hilary NESI
CJ Professor Colin Jones
HN So, I’ll start off by asking, What you think seminars are for?
CJ What I always tell students is that a seminar is essentially a workshop.
HN M’m.
CJ I say if they want to come there and be brilliant, and shine and be fabulous, that’s absolutely fine. But they won’t, you know, get any particular extra Brownie points for it, but that’s great. The essential thing is that they come there, with something, with some ideas, with some questions, and they work collectively with their fellow students and their tutor to try and get things straight in their mind. And the idea is that if at the end of the hour, or the hour and a half they walk out still feeling, “Well I don’t quite understand what such-and-such means”, or “I still don’t know what a bourgeoisie is, or a nobility is.” - well, that’s fine, but it will have been an opportunity missed - that this is the chance for them to sort of work on their ideas, on their concepts, on their way of thinking about history, in a way which is totally different from, you know, what can go on in a lecture or in a tutorial.
HN So it’s very different from a lecture and a tutorial then?
CJ Yes. A lecture is essentially, in England at least, somewhere where the student comes in and takes notes. The lecturer will deliver a fairly formal talk for normally 45 - 50 minutes. There will be overheads. There will be, you know, guides and prompts to the students on the board, or on the OHP, but basically they will be taking notes and they’ll take them away and work on them afterwards.
HN What about a tutorial? Isn’t that like a seminar?
CJ In our department, the way we use tutorials is that tutorials are constructed around a written essay. And that basically the student comes in to see the course tutor, who will give back to him or her a course essay which has been marked. And that also is a very important sort of place for learning, if you like. We think that’s a very important site for student learning, because it gives the student the chance to be told where they’ve gone wrong. Of course, also where they’ve gone right! - but probably they’re going to be more interested in where they went wrong and how they can get better. And so we see that as very personalised. Very customised. Very much orientated around the written work of the student.
HN And what kind of preparation? They have to do a preparation for the tutorial, write an essay - but what about the seminar? Do they have to do - prepare for that?
CJ Yes. There is always preparation, and most of us feel that it is very important never to have a free rider in a seminar. No one must come there not having done work in advance. But there’s a tremendous amount of variety in what people actually expect their students to do. Sometimes a tutor will say, “Well, we’ll all read chapter 4 - or we’ll all read this and that article and then we’ll just have a discussion.” - and may appoint someone as a - as a sort of seminar discussant - to introduce the main themes and to get the conversation and the debate going.
At other times a tutor will say, “Well, we’ve got a lot of reading to cover, so I want you three to be responsible for that - those chapters or those articles. You couple to look at that book. And then we’ll come together and we’ll discuss it.”
Another possibility is that there will be a sort of core of reading, which everyone does, and that one or two students will then be asked to give a proper presentation. And they’ll present perhaps the work or perhaps additional work in a five or ten minute short presentation. And that again can be the basis for the seminar discussion to take off.
HN M’m.
TK Could we just interrupt you for a second. - (Sounds as though Tim does something with the video.) This is very good.
HN Shall I move the cups?
TK If I may.
CJ Yes.
HN Will that be a continuity problem? (All laugh and talk at once.)
TK I won’t be cutting the cups for you. You’ll just be using bricks.
CJ Yes.
HN Sharp-eyed viewers might …! Oh well never mind!
TK There’s just one more thing - I just want to ????
(All mutter inaudibly!)
HN Are there actually doctors in there?
TK Yeah. (Laughs) No, no, we’ve not got enough!…… So, sorry to interrupt you. Carry on whenever you want.
HN So, you - you ready to go?
CJ Yeah, yeah.
HN You said you don’t tolerate free riders, but what happens if there is somebody who doesn’t do any work? I mean does that affect their overall - the outcome of their degree, for instance?
CJ It doesn’t affect the overall outcome of their degree, because in this department - although we have looked at the possibility of assessing seminar performance - we found it too difficult to do in a way which is fair to students.
HN M’m.
CJ So we don’t actually access the student performance. On the other hand, I think, it’s what I said at the beginning really, that this is an opportunity for students to get things right in their minds. If they - if they are doggedly refusing to do that, in a way there’s not much one can do about it. But on the other hand, one hopes that they will want to contribute, and also that the seminar leader, who after all is a teacher in the university and would be pretty experienced at this sort of thing, will have techniques for bringing students out and bringing students into the discussion.
HN M’m. And what happens if you have students who have language problems? What about international students?
CJ International students? - that’s a very good point. And I think this is a problem which applies not just to international students, but also to very, very shy students. If students are finding it difficult to keep up, or to contribute to the discussion, then I think it’s important for the seminar tutor to pick that up and to work with the student at ways of getting round that. And I think there are a number of techniques. One of the ones which I always use, for example, is, I say, “Well, next week we’re doing such-and-such a subject. I want you to do your reading, but come, not just ready to talk, but with a list of points which you can actually make in the discussion. And I will look to you to make those particular points.” And this is a way of, I think, getting the person involved. What’s terribly important with a seminar discussion - I always tell this to our first year students - is speak early. Speak - speak as soon as you can, because it’s the most difficult thing in a seminar is to break the ice, and if you’re leaving that for half an hour, then you’re going to be in trouble. That’s why I, as a seminar tutor, always try and make sure that everyone says something within the first five minutes - even if it’s what the weather’s like, or what they were watching on TV, or something. So it’s terribly important for the - particularly so in the case of, as I say, for very shy students, or students who feel very unconfident about speaking in public - but also especially for overseas students - that these sort of techniques are sort of picked up on and that they contribute early and contribute in a formal way, because I think once they do that then it becomes easier for them to go on and make further contributions.
HN Does discussion get heated? Do you find that confident - some of the confident members of the seminar group - are arguing amongst themselves and the less confident ones can’t contribute because of that?
CJ Yeah, this is always a - let me say that again. The question of balancing inputs from students is a very delicate one. One doesn’t want to stop people talking. On the other hand, there are times when it’s important for a seminar tutor to intervene and just to tone done, or to sort of keep restrained, the contributions of one particularly voluble or enthusiastic student, so that it doesn’t shade out the contribution of others who are perhaps shyer or who find it more difficult to express themselves in a public venue. So I think that’s something we always have to look out - look out for. On the other hand, one doesn’t want to restrain enthusiasm and keenness. And yes, sometimes seminars can get quite enthused and voluble. Many seminar tutors, for example, have the technique of asking people to take up a position on a particular historical problem. I teach the French Revolution, for example. And one of the things which I always do is, I say, “Well, we have the trial of the King - King Louis XVIth and he’s going to get executed at the end of this. I want you to be his supporters.”… “or you to be his defenders.” And this obviously gets people very heated and very involved. And it sort of gets the discussion going in a particularly sort of lively and animated way.
HN M’m. Sounds interesting. (Laughs.) I think that’s about it, isn’t it? Have we got anything - is there anything else we need to - I think it’s covered, just about everything - except what kind -
TK Um - yeah.
HN - learning outcomes? I suppose that’s really, more-or-less been …..?
TK Yeah, I think so too.
CJ Learning outcomes - ask me about that, because I think that’s I do have a couple of ideas on that.
TK O.K. Yeah.
HN Right.
TK One thing I felt, that some of the - some of the discussion was kind of addressed towards, you know, what tutors should do, whereas, really we trying to get at is really -
HN Yeah.
TK - advice for students.
HN Yeah, yes, that’s getting interesting then, because, this is like, I was thinking in the back of mind, I was thinking ????? (fast and all speaking at once, overlaid by laughter).
CJ Could we do that? Yeah, I take your point. Do it from the point of view of the student.
HN Yeah.
TK I’ll just come in slightly.
CJ Yeah.
TK O.K.
HN So, we need to be thinking in terms of how - what students can do in order to contribute, if - what kind of -
CJ Yeah. I mean, I’m trying to provide advice ultimately for students, so if we try to think from their perspective, what kind of advice would be useful for them.
TK Yeah, they should go and talk to the tutor, and find out the things that they can suggest. Yeah, O.K. I can do it - I can re-do that on that.
HN M’m.
CJ O.K.
HN What was the actual question? Was it to do with -
TK Students who are more quiet and ….
HN Yes.
TK Or international ones, who find it difficult to contribute.
HN Yes. Do you find that sometimes students whose language - first language isn’t English - have more difficulty contributing to a seminar?
CJ That is sometimes - though not always the case. If that is the case, though - and this, of course, is something which happens not just with international students, but also with home students who are perhaps very shy, or very unconfident about speaking in public, it can be a trial for them to actually contribute in a seminar situation. I mean, one of the things I always tell students is, if that is the case, make sure you say something early - because breaking the ice is always the more - the most difficult thing. And to say something quickly within a seminar - even if it’s only “Good morning” and what the weather’s like outside, or what you saw on the TV last night, can be tremendously important in boosting your confidence and making it that much easier for you to contribute later in the seminar, or on an issue of substance.
I think the other thing which I would say - if this is really getting a problem for a student - if they’re finding it immensely difficult to contribute in any way, I think they should go and talk to the seminar tutor about this, and discuss ways of getting round this. One of the obvious ways of doing it - one of the ways which I as a seminar tutor do as well, is, I say to the students, “Well, why don’t you come to the tutorial with a list of points that you want to make, written down, 5 or 6 points, and we’ll make sure that you say it, say those points, early in the session, so that you have the confidence, that you’ve made points, that you’ve made a contribution to the discussion, and then might find it easier to contribute thereafter.
There are a number of techniques, I think, which students can use. And I would advise them to talk to seminar tutors about the best way of overcoming this problem of lack of ability to contribute towards seminar discussions.
HN From the student’s point of view, what do you think students get out of the experience of attending seminars?
CJ I think if it works well, a seminar is something which makes history come alive for students.
HN M’m.
CJ They’ve contributed. They’ve brought something in. They’ve tried it out, if you like, in the seminar discussion with their peers and with their seminar tutor, and that will fix things in their minds, in a way which is totally different, I think, and much more real and much more internalised very often, than some of the sort of skip-reading which is necessary, obviously for writing for essays and all the rest of it. So it is real, quality learning, I think, for a student. And that’s what I always say to students - “Make sure you go in well prepared and that you are willing to put in as much as you can, in terms of effort and enthusiasm, because it repays the effort.”
HN Thank you.
CJ Can I carry on there?
HN M’m.
CJ At the end of the day, I think it’s very important that students take out with them a sense that they have fixed some things in their mind; they’ve got things straight, if you like, in their minds, and that - I’ve forgotten what else I was going to say now! - I had a terribly important point!! (All laugh - reassuring it happens to us all!)