LegalCiteM TC
Date:September 30, 2015
Time: 10:00 a.m. EDT; 5:00 p.m. EDT (Pacific)
In attendance:F. Bennett, Dann, Heywood,Hirsh, Larrington, Lupescu, Knapp, Neuren, Niedringhaus, Palmirani, Parisse, Vitali
1.The committee discussed the scope and mission and proposed output of the group.
2.The committee approved the Response to the ELI Taskforce Note.
anonymous morphed into Kris Niedringhaus
anonymous1 morphed into parisse
anonymous morphed into Daniel Lupescu
anonymous morphed into Michael Neuren
Melanie:pLEASE record attendance:
Michael Neuren: Did anyone catch the new US telephone number for this conference call?
Melanie: Michael, Yes. I will verify with Chet and then let the Committee know for sure. Thank you!
Melanie: Has everyone reviewed? Or do we need a few moments?
Frank: (Frank is lurking - no audio today, sadly)
Melanie: Great, Frank. Thanks! Can you hear this discussion at all?
Melanie: @Frank, also please record your attendance in the calendar. URL higher up in the chat. Thank you.
Melanie: Discussion of difference between identifier and reference.
anonymous morphed into John Dann
Frank: (@Melanie: done)
Melanie: E.g. Fabio's name is Fabio. His address is at CIRSFID with a street address. The address is an actionable item with a specific location to find him. Whereas his name requires an intermediary -- like a directory (Phone book) to find him.
Melanie:@Frank, thanks.
Melanie: A reference is another thing, in addition to an identifier.
Ken H: But what is a reference?
Ken H: Is a reference any "mention" of an item.
Melanie: I think a reference is a string of characters that likely is similar to the AkomoNtoso standard used for other things.
Melanie: Fabio is not agreeing with me about AKN, necessarily.
Ken H: That we are having this discussion 18 months into the process, which repeats some of the earlier discussions we've had, gives me pause to consider whether (1) we understand our scope and (2) whether our scope is attainable.
Ken H: In English idiomatic parlance, I think OASIS and this TC may have bitten more than we can chew.
Melanie: Fabio's idea for our output: a meta-syntax for references that allows different string representations of the same reference in many syntaxes.
Melanie: @Ken, I think we will know when we see the proposed technical standard. The main difference is a reference isn't a URL.
Melanie: URL identifier is given by the owner and is an address to find that document.
Fabio Vitali: 123 Main street, 12345 SomePlace NY USA is a street address. It is an identifier., It is a locator
Ken H: Are we not concerned with machine-readable CITATION?
Melanie: Ken, the idea is that you tag a citation with a reference and let a machine try to find the citation with the machine-readable reference.
Melanie: Like 123 U.S. 456 might be /US/Court/Opinion/year/etc./etc./ --> now machine tries to find any one document that meets the description.
Monica Palmirani: - Adjudications of Courts, Court Documents, and Court/Tribunal Rules SC (
- Executive Branch/Regulations/Administrative Documents SC (
- Legislation, Constitutions, Treaties and Parliamentary Documents SC (
- Secondary Material SC (
- Technical SC (
Fabio Vitali: Please have a thorough look at
Ken H: Agree with Melanie's position; think we need a simpler conceptual view and to focus more on how end-users will use a standard.
Monica Palmirani: Equally please read the documents coming from the subcommittees.
Monica Palmirani: One of the scope of this TC is to define a set of universal standards for permitting cross-references between citations included in heterogeneous legal document formats. For heterogeneous legal document formats I meant for instance the same ACT (WORK) but published by two different bodies (official gazette and publisher), with two different XML schemas and different identifier naming convention (ELI or AKN).
Melanie: Our audience: programmers
Melanie: Fabio comfortable with technical complexities. He needs check on whether the references are sophisticated and rich enough from the legal point of view. For example: are we missing any essential facet to identify a legal document?
Monica Palmirani: Provide examples here:
Melanie: By next meeting, Fabio will add simple examples to:
Melanie: Now, we turn to the Response to the ELI Taskforce Note.
Melanie: John Dann is trying to clarify the Taskforce's concerns. One, is with the URI's, but now Fabio has helped to alleviate that concern. Two, ELI has lots of experience with users out there. ELI thinks too much variety across jurisdictions, and so the concern is if the standard is strict, then jurisdictions will NOT adopt it.
Monica Palmirani: The intention of LegalCiteM standard(s) is not to restrict the identifier naming convention of the national legal tradition, but to have an harmonized gateway standard(s) for redirecting the citations into differents identifiers.
Monica Palmirani: ELI-LUX --> LegalCiteM --> URN:LEX-IT
Melanie: Let's move for a vote. Any modifications can be made by motion.
Monica Palmirani: yes
Kris Niedringhaus: Yes
Fabio Vitali: yes
Kris Niedringhaus: Thank you Melanie!
Melanie: Thanks, Kris!
Ken H: Yes, thanks for a well-run meeting.
Melanie: Thank, Ken. The "Iron voice" over the phone. Ha ha!
Melanie: The motion to approve the ELI Taskforce Note carries in the morning meeting. The final vote will be determined after the afternoon Pacific Rim meeting.
Melanie: Next meeting at 10:00 U.S. Eastern Time on Wednesday, October 14. Melanie will check about the call access numbers. Cheers, all!
Ken H: I was once called "stentorian."
Frank: Hiya.
Frank: Anyone about?
Frank: (morning call time)
Frank: (pretty sure it said 5:00)
Frank: (ah, well)
Frank: (signing off)
Frank: (aha! reading from the wrong date)
John Heywood: Hi frank
Frank: Morning!
Melanie: Hi Frank, John, Jane!
Melanie: Let's wait a minute for John Joergensen.
Melanie: Please record your attendance:
Melanie: We are talking about differences between identifiers and references. Frank gives an example of student with reference to a cambodian government document. Doubtful anyone can get access to the original. Three documents we can get: a document in Cambodian send to UN, a translation of the UN document in English, something else (didn't catch it all). Both have different dates. Student had a book with the original documents in it, but the "book" has no identifying information and had very limited publication and the documents in the collection can't be verified.
Melanie: Frank's work with reference manager is useful in looking at a document and defining all the important descriptors that ought to be included. E.g., title of legislation, date, date of amendment, etc. These are the essential facets. This is like the work of our subcommittees -- to make sure that are syntax includes all the necessary attributes needed to describe a legal document (or expression).
Melanie: Executive documents are at
Melanie: Committee will vote next time to make janesc chair of exec documents. We try to wrangle her some active committee members.
Melanie:fabio planning to update with examples