Item 2
HRF
HRF MEETING – 4 AUGUST 2004
STIRLING COUNCIL CHAMBER
Present:Billy Parker – AMICUS – Co-Chair
George Brechin – NHS Fife
John Reid – NHSForthValley
Jim Cameron – NHS Greater Glasgow (South Glasgow Division)
Scott Anderson (in place of David Esplin) – BMA
Julie McNutt – CDNA
Michael Fuller – AMICUS
Gordon Walker – NHS Lanarkshire
Lindsey Ferries – Golden Jubilee
Jonathan Best – Yorkhill
Eddie Egan – UNISON
Elizabeth Stow – SOR
Gillian Lenaghan – RCM
John Callaghan – NHS Ayrshire and Arran
Dougie Lockhart – RCN
Gordon Wenham – RCN
Susan Russell – GMB
In attendance:Jacqui Jones – PSUAlex Killick – SEHD
Diane Murray – PSUClaire Brennan – PSU
Peter Christie – SEHDJanet Garcia – SEHD
1.Apologies
1.1Mark Butler, Lynne Khindria, Anne Thomson, Patricia McNally, Catherine MacKay, Lilian Macer, Eileen Moir and Jim Devine.
2.Minute of last meeting
2.1The minute was accepted as an accurate record of the last meeting
3.Matters Arising
3.1Members were content to formally endorse the action points and progress from the meeting held on 11 June.
4.Childcare Allowance for NHS Funded Students
4.1A brief overview on this issue to members from Elizabeth Stow who kindly explained the background behind this issue and her reason for raising it at the meeting. In summary, it was hoped that members would agree to the HRF making a recommendation to the Minister for Health and Community Care for a similar scheme to be adopted in Scotland. The final decision would, of course, rest with the Minister.
4.2Although there were a number of points raised on this issue, members were content with this proposal and it was suggested that, if a positive decision could be reached, then the Minister could make an announcement at the Retention Conference Scheduled for October. Alex Killick would develop this proposal on behalf of the HRF.
Action: Alex Killick
5.Terms & Conditions Sub-Group
5.1The discussion focused on the papers tabled by Jacqui Jones. It was stressed to members that the paper was still very much in draft format and therefore comments on the content, style etc were very much appreciated.
5.2The first issue raised by members was that of voting, as contain in section 6 of the attached appendix. Members were of the view that decisions should be agreed by consensusthrough partnership. This also linked to the issue of proportionality which was discussed and made clear that this was the UNISON position. Members were also concerned over whether or not decisions made by the group would be legally binding but as was explained by the Chair, the purpose of the HRF was to make recommendations to the Minister who would make the ultimate decision on whether or not to accept the recommendation. Members also requested that the wording in the draft paper be tightened, especially in relation to remit and membership.
5.32 action points arose from this issue.
1.The group originally commissioned to address this issue reconvene in order to take forward and address the issues raised by members. The plan is to resubmit a new draft at the next meeting.
Action: PSU
2.Members aid in this process by feeding comments to Jacqui Jones.
Action: HRF
6.Employment Issues
6.1Diane Murray kindly updated members on the progress to date. Diane reported that a small working group had met to discuss and look at the 1991 Employment Regulations. The working group reached an agreement to revoke the current regulations whilst inputting some caveats. The next step in the process was to seek legal advice from Scottish Executive Solicitors (OSSE) who reported that, although not impossible, it would be very difficult to move regulations while Parliament was still in recess. Following on from that, Diane reported that the next step was to circulate a letter to the service clarifying employment issues and employer status following the move to single system working. Unfortunately, official clearance had not yet been received and the letter had not been issued.
6.2In the open discussion that followed members raised concerns over a number of issues such as moving staff to Whitley, whilst protecting the terms and conditions of those who may be better off on their current contracts. Members also requested clarification of the new proposals as, as pointed out by many of the members, legal advice was often open to interpretation. There was also discussion, questions and guidance sought over variation orders. What are the barriers and rules? Who decides and approves the orders and so on. Members also raised the issue of Agenda for Change (AfC) and the impact that implementation will have on the service. How will the change be managed? What are the cost implications? These are all issues that need to be addressed and so with that in mind; members agreed that the issue should be added to the agenda for the next HRF meeting on 8 October.
Action: Ryan Gunn
7.Allied Health Professionals (AHPs)
7.1Janet Garcia from the Scottish Executive Health Department was present at the meeting to answer any questions or queries that members might have on the paper circulated before the meeting. As summarised by Janet the paper invited members to note the range of initiatives being implemented to address recruitment and retention of AHPs and to provide an indication of support for the introduction of ‘one off’ incentive payments for ‘hard to fill’ posts that have been vacant for 6 months or more.
7.2Although, as pointed out early in the discussion, this was an agreed partnership commitment, many members were unconvinced about this approach. It was felt that the premia was not locally applied – indeed the paper hints at individual pay bargaining and it failed to address the issue of staff who were already in post. Again, concerns were raised over how this scheme will fit in once AfC is implemented. This also clashes with an agreement reached by SPRIG. Other concerns were raised over retention of staff, training, costs, flexible working patterns and the whole strategic approach to the issue.
7.3In drawing the item to a close, it was agreed that members of the HRF would volunteer to work with Janet and help her redraft the paper in light of the comments received. Eddie Egan, Michael Fuller and a HR rep – as yet to be nominated – all kindly volunteered.
Action: HRF
7.4Lastly, the PSU would assist with the setting up of a meeting in order to progress this issue.
Action: PSU
8.HAI – Personnel, Policy and Procedure
8.1As summarised by Jacqui Jones, the purpose of this paper was to ask members to make a recommendation and agreement on the draft policy and procedure document on staff screening during incidents and outbreaks. If reached, the paper would then be submitted to the HAI Taskforce. It was also highlighted that this was very much the first draft of this document that more work and the input of members was very much required.
8.2Members queried why no discussion had taken place between the Taskforce and OHSSIG as it was only right and proper that OHSSIG feed into this exercise. Redeployment and the need to address concerns over staff having to retire through ill health need to be addressed as do pension rights. Concerns over the language used and who the paper was directed at were also raised. No mention was made to the IMT Team. Partnership seemed to be used as an afterthought on this issue. Superannuation of Industrial Injuries and the whole retirement issue needs to be addressed. On the whole, members were happy to endorse the thinking behind the strategy but more work on the paper was required.
8.3In closing the item, it was agreed that Jacqui would redraft the paper to reflect the many comments received by members.
Action: Jacqui Jones
8.4Members were also invited to submit their comments to Jacqui.
Action: HRF
9.Counterfraud Services Role in Fraud Related Disciplinary Matters
9.1In a short overview from Gillian Lenaghan, members were informed of this consultation document which was to see how HR would play into counterfraud services. The consultation paper focuses on the extension of the role of the NHSScotland Counter Fraud Service and what effect, if any, which will have on the investigation of potential disciplinary cases.
9.2There were a number of comments arising from member such as the duty of care to the individual and the fact that discipline will still rest with the employer. Comment was also made to the importance of seeing the whole consultation paper and so 2 action points were agreed.
1.More information will sought from Neil Bilsland and John Hair
Action: PSU
2.The issue will be raised at the next meeting of the HRF on 8 October.
Action: Ryan Gunn
10.National Workforce Strategy (NWS)
10.1There followed a brief summary of the briefing paper from Alex Killick. In his summary Alex mentioned:
- The 4 strands that make up the strategy
- Both HRF and SPF members concerns over the development of the NWS
- That the NWS will be debated at some length at the next meeting of the SPF
- The various links that the NWS has to both the HRF and SPF
- How the NWS discharges it’s business
10.2Members agreed that it was vital that this issue remained on the HRF agenda. Members would also like to see at some point a paper detailing all of the sub-groups attached to the NWS and the selection process for joining these groups.
11.PIN
11.1Following on from Isabel Nisbett’s presentation at the recent Policy Seminar, Claire Brennan reported that Isabel had met with members of the PIN Board on 2 August where it was agreed that the review timetable for the Capability PIN Guideline should be brought forward and the proposal for the development of a Management Board for Scotland and she now sought endorsement for these proposals from the HRF.
11.2 Members were content in principle with these proposals.
11.3Mention was also made of correspondence received by the PIN Board from a Health Board seeking information and clarification on a number of issues. The PIN Board were not in a position to respond to these queries and so it was agreed that the letter would be passed to the HRF Secretariat to respond.
Action: Claire Brennan
12.Employment Law Group
12.1No Comment
13.OHSSIG
13.1The minute of the last OHSSIG meeting has still to be finalised.
13.2On a connected matter, Susan Russell reported that the Glove selection policy had now been endorsed by OHSSIG and was now out for circulation.
14.Diversity Task Force
14.1Members were content with the action points
15.SPRIG
15.1The minute of the last meeting was not ready for circulation.
16.National Workforce Committee (NWC)
16.1No comment.
17.HRF Meeting Schedule for 2005
17.1Members were content with the dates for 2005. The Chair encouraged members to add these dates to their diaries now.
18.Performance Incentive Framework
18.1Members agreed that this item should be added to the agenda for the next meeting of the group on 8 October as a matter for discussion.
Action: Ryan Gunn
19.HRF Briefing Paper
19.1No comment.
20.Healthier Working Lives
20.1No comment
21.NHS Super Annuation Scheme
21.1Concerns raised over developments in Scotland. This is an issue that members are keen to pursue and so it shall be added to the agenda for the next meeting on 8 October as a matter for discussion.
Action: Ryan Gunn
22.Flexible Training in Clinical Psychology
22.1No comment
The next meeting of the HRF will take place on Friday 8 October at the Scottish Health Service Centre.
Ryan Gunn
Partnership Support Unit
9 August 2004
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