ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION
GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION
CFMEU BRISBANE
Level 5, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2000
On Thursday, 4 September 2014 at 10.00am
Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC
Counsel Assisting:Mr Jeremy Stoljar SC
Mr Michael Elliott
Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors
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1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar.
2
3 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, the first witness this morning
4 is Mr Robinson.
5
6 <MICHAEL KENNETH ROBINSON, sworn: [10.02am]
7
8 <EXAMINATION BY MR STOLJAR:
9
10 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Robinson, could you tell the
11 Commission your full name?
12 A. Yes. Michael Kenneth Robinson.
13
14 Q. You are a resident of Queensland?
15 A. That's correct.
16
17 Q. You are the Regional Coordinator for the Queensland
18 and Northern Territory Divisional Branch of the CFMEU?
19 A. That's correct.
20
21 Q. You have prepared a witness statement in these
22 proceedings. It is not signed but it is dated 14 August
23 2014?
24 A. That's correct.
25
26 Q. You have got a copy of that with you in the witness
27 box?
28 A. Yes, I do.
29
30 Q. Is the content of that statement true and correct?
31 A. Yes, it is.
32
33 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, I would ask that Mr Robinson's
34 statement be received into evidence
35
36 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that will be received into
37 evidence. I have just one very trivial correction to it
38 for your consideration, Mr Robinson. Do you have it in
39 front of you?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. Paragraph 11, line 3, it should say, "Telephoned",
43 I suppose? The word "telephone" should be "telephoned"?
44 A. Okay.
45
46 Q. Are you happy with that?
47 A. Yes.
.04/09/2014 (7) 585 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1
2 #STATEMENT OF MICHAEL KENNETH ROBINSON DATED 14/08/2014
3
4 MR STOLJAR: Q. And save for that correction, the
5 content of the statement is true and correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7
8 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, did you rule on the
9 admissibility?
10
11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
12
13 MR STOLJAR: Q. Could you go to paragraph 1 of your
14 statement, Mr Robinson. You say that your position for
15 about 13 months has been Regional Coordinator, and prior to
16 that you were the North Queensland organiser. In your
17 position as Regional Coordinator, do organisers report to
18 you?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Do organisers from across Queensland and the Northern
22 Territory report to you?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Do you then report to Mr Ravbar?
26 A. That's correct.
27
28 Q. You have been an organiser since 2008. What were you
29 before then?
30 A. Construction worker.
31
32 Q. How long have you been in the construction industry?
33 A. It'd be 20-plus years.
34
35 Q. If you go to paragraph 3 of your statement, you say
36 you met with Mr Smith once in the latter half of 2013 and
37 you describe it as a "meet and greet". You say that in the
38 final words of paragraph 3?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. Did you give him your business card on that occasion?
42 A. I'm unsure.
43
44 Q. Can I give you a copy of your business card. Is that
45 the card you were using in 2013?
46 A. Possibly. We've had a couple of versions.
47
.04/09/2014 (7) 586 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1 Q. Is the handwritten email address that has been
2 inserted on the card an email address that you use from
3 time to time?
4 A. No. That's a non-existent email address.
5
6 Q. What do you mean it's non-existent? Is that your
7 handwriting?
8 A. Yes, it is. It doesn't exist anymore.
9
10 Q. Oh, I see. It existed in 2013, did it?
11 A. No, it didn't.
12
13 Q. When did it cease to be used?
14 A. Oh, a couple of years ago.
15
16 Q. Is that your mobile number?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. And that was your mobile number in 2013 and it still
20 is today?
21 A. That's correct.
22
23 Q. Did you use that BigPond address from time to time
24 while you were at the CFMEU?
25 A. No, definitely not.
26
27 Q. Definitely not?
28 A. No.
29
30 Q. You have written it on your card?
31 A. This card could be one of the members.
32
33 Q. You mean it has been handed to one of the members?
34 A. Yes, it could have been. That's right.
35
36 Q. Did you use the BigPond email address for work
37 associated with the CFMEU at any stage?
38 A. No.
39
40 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, I would ask that the copy of
41 Mr Robinson' card be admitted into evidence.
42
43 THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection?
44
45 MR AGIUS: No.
46
47 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Robinson MFI-1
.04/09/2014 (7) 587 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1
2 ROBINSON MFI#1 COPY OF BUSINESS CARD WITH HANDWRITTEN EMAIL
3 ADDRESS
4
5 MR STOLJAR: Q. Could you go to paragraph 4 of your
6 statement. You say there:
7
8 At no stage ... was a ban placed ... on
9 Universal Cranes Townsville.
10
11 You have, I take it, had frequent dealings with Mr Ravbar?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. Have you discussed this question with Mr Ravbar?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. And have you discussed the content of what to say in
18 your statement with Mr Ravbar?
19 A. No.
20
21 Q. The fact is that there was a ban on Universal Cranes
22 in Townsville; correct?
23 A. No.
24
25 Q. A ban placed by the CFMEU?
26 A. No, that is incorrect.
27
28 Q. Could you come to paragraph 5 of your statement. You
29 say:
30
31 I did receive a telephone call from
32 Mr Smith on Friday 28 February 2014 ...
33
34 That was on your mobile, was it?
35 A. That's correct.
36
37 Q. On the mobile number that we identified on your
38 business card a moment ago?
39 A. That's correct.
40
41 Q.. That conversation related to the Gladstone Foreshore
42 project; that's correct?
43 A. That's correct.
44
45 Q. It related to events that had taken place the day
46 before on the Gladstone project, that is to say on
47 27 February?
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. You told Mr Smith that you would look in to the
4 matter?
5 A. That's correct.
6
7 Q. In fact, you told him that you would sort it out?
8 A. That is incorrect.
9
10 Q. You say you didn't use those words?
11 A. Yes. I did not use those words.
12
13 Q. You have endeavoured in your statement to respond to
14 matters in Mr Smith's statement; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. You set out fully your response to Mr Smith's
18 statement in your own statement; correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20
21 Q. How did you come to prepare your statement? Did you
22 go through Mr Smith's statement first?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. You tell me, how did you actually prepare your
26 statement?
27 A. I read Mr Smith's statement and responded to
28 accusations or misleading information he put in his
29 statement and emails that he sent to the union.
30
31 Q. Was someone with you when you prepared your statement?
32 A. No.
33
34 Q. You did it all on your own?
35 A. That's right.
36
37 Q. So it's all your own words, is it?
38 A. That's correct.
39
40 Q. You were anxious to respond to any matters that
41 Mr Smith had said that you didn't agree with?
42 A. That's correct.
43
44 Q. Because you understand the importance, do you, of
45 responding to allegations that are made?
46 A. Yes.
47
.04/09/2014 (7) 589 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1 Q. You understood that in 2013 as well, I take it?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Mr Smith says in his statement that you said words to
5 the effect, "I'll sort it out". Do you remember that?
6 A. That is incorrect. I did not use any of those words.
7
8 Q. My question was: do you remember that Mr Smith uses
9 those words in his statement?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. You say that you never used those words?
13 A. No.
14
15 Q. Where do I find that in paragraph 5 of your statement?
16 It's not there, is it, Mr Robinson?
17 A. No.
18
19 Q. And it's not in paragraph 6 either. In any event, you
20 now wish to say that you never said those words; is that
21 right?
22 A. That's right.
23
24 Q. At paragraph 6 of your statement you say:
25
26 At no stage ... did I say words to the
27 effect that 'neither Smithbridge nor
28 Universal Cranes were able to move precast
29 panels until Smithbridge Group signed
30 a CFMEU EBA that covered the entire
31 Smithbridge Group business all over
32 Australia'.
33
34 Do you see that?
35 A. Yes, I see that.
36
37 Q. Did you say that sometime shortly after your telephone
38 conversation with Mr Smith on the 28th?
39 A. No.
40
41 Q. Well, you did say that to Mr Smith, didn't you,
42 Mr Robinson?
43 A. No, I did not.
44
45 Q. You certainly said it to him a few days later in your
46 call on 3 March 2014?
47 A. I had no further correspondence after that Friday.
.04/09/2014 (7) 590 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1
2 Q. By the word "correspondence", do you mean telephone
3 conversation?
4 A. Telephone conversation or any email correspondence.
5
6 Q. You did receive an email from him after that, because
7 you talk about it in paragraph 9 of your statement,
8 Mr Robinson?
9 A. Yes, I received emails from Mr Smith, but I did not
10 respond to any of his emails.
11
12 Q. So your position is that you received a telephone call
13 on the 28th and then an email on the 1st, and you say you
14 did not respond?
15 A. That's correct.
16
17 Q. You wanted Smithbridge to sign a general CFMEU EBA;
18 correct?
19 A. Incorrect.
20
21 Q. In paragraph 6, you say:
22
23 ... I had no idea as to extent of the
24 Smithbridge Group business ...
25
26 You did not need to know that to get him to enter into an
27 EBA, did you?
28 A. I had no conversation in regards to an EBA.
29
30 Q. In paragraph 9 of your statement, you say in reference
31 to paragraph 170:
32
33 I did receive an email from Mr Smith on
34 Saturday 1 March 2014 which is tab 52 to
35 the Smith Statement.
36
37 If I can take you to that.
38
39 MR STOLJAR: It is in evidence, Commissioner. It is in
40 a bundle which is marked AS-1. I note for the electronic
41 court book that tab 52 corresponds to page 450.
42
43 THE WITNESS: Paragraph?
44
45 MR STOLJAR: Q. Page 450, Mr Robinson. This was an
46 email you agreed that you received from Mr Smith on
47 1 March. It is the day after your telephone call. You
.04/09/2014 (7) 591 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1 knew who Mr Smith was, of course, I take it?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. You knew he was a significant crane operator?
5 A. That's correct.
6
7 Q. He had rung you the day before; correct?
8 A. He rung me on the Friday, yes.
9
10 Q. You said in your statement that he was agitated when
11 he rang you?
12 A. Yes. He seemed agitated.
13
14 Q. He was upset about what had happened the day before on
15 the Gladstone site; correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17
18 Q. He suggested to you the CFMEU was black banning his
19 company; correct?
20 A. That's the allegation he made, yes.
21
22 Q. He then sent you the email that we are looking at, at
23 page 450, and you read it?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. It is a lengthy email?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. It attached his email to Mr Ravbar of the same day?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. I am sorry, the day before. He says:
33
34 Mick I thank you for your phone call
35 yesterday afternoon and your offer to help
36 resolve this problem.
37
38 So you had offered to help resolve the problem, that is
39 right, isn't it?
40 A. I said I would look into it.
41
42 Q. And he says:
43
44 I hope you can sort this out and advise us
45 what is required to allow work to
46 recommence ... Please understand that this
47 matter is urgent as Smithbridge will be
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1 incurring liquidated damages ...
2
3 So you read that on that day?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Then he describes how a number of persons were
7 demobilised from the site - and you can take a moment to
8 read through. But he says, in substance, that Ms McLean
9 was acting on advice from Mr Moses and then in the third
10 line:
11
12 ... that all Smithbridge employees are
13 banned from this site by the union.
14
15 He says that, doesn't he?
16 A. He does say that.
17
18 Q. You had not had any substantive dealings with him
19 subsequent to your meeting in late 2013?
20 A. That's correct.
21
22 Q. So you have an agitated call from him the day before
23 and now a detailed email; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. And he is saying it is urgent?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. And he is a significant operator in the industry;
30 correct?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. Coming down the page:
34
35 The Hutchinson Builders Gladstone
36 manager ... has advised us that no
37 Smithbridge activities are allowed to
38 recommence ...
39
40 My understanding is that the CFMEU will not
41 allow any Smithbridge related work to
42 proceed at the project site until we agree
43 to sign a new EBA with the CFMEU for our
44 Smithbridge construction business. If I
45 have misunderstood your demands then please
46 advise me exactly what the CFMEU are
47 demanding from our company.
.04/09/2014 (7) 593 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I see that.
4
5 Q. Well, he is inviting you to clarify the position,
6 isn't he?
7 A. He is.
8
9 Q. What he had said was that no Smithbridge related work
10 would proceed until that EBA was signed was absolutely
11 correct, was it not?
12 A. No.
13
14 Q. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. Well, that's what he says.
16
17 Q. And he is saying what you know to be factually
18 correct; you agree?
19 A. No, that's incorrect.
20
21 Q. The position was that the CFMEU had implemented a ban
22 on the site of Smithbridge and Universal Cranes' employees;
23 correct?
24 A. That's incorrect.
25
26 Q. Did you write back to him --
27 A. No, I didn't.
28
29 Q. -- to clarify the position?
30 A. No, I didn't.
31
32 Q. You told me before you understood in 2013 and through
33 to 2014 that it is important if someone makes allegations
34 to respond to them?
35 A. Yes, that's right.
36
37 Q. And you didn't respond to this, did you?
38 A. No, I didn't respond to this.
39
40 Q. Because what he was saying was quite correct?
41 A. No, it was incorrect for the simple fact that I had to
42 look into it.
43
44 Q. You saw, did you, in the next paragraph, he was trying
45 to contact Mr Ravbar?
46 A. Yes.
47
.04/09/2014 (7) 594 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1 Q. Mr Ravbar had not responded to him, you understood
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4
5 Q. And then he says, "I am trying to call Jodie Moses"?
6 A. Yes.
7
8 Q. That is the gentleman you then spoke to?
9 A. I spoke to him briefly before our phone coverage was
10 cut out.
11
12 Q. And he says:
13
14 Jodie Moses called me back later to advise
15 that this was not acceptable ...
16
17 That was the proposal he describes in the final
18 paragraph on page 450:
19
20 ... and that there would be no union
21 approval for either Smithbridge or
22 Universal Cranes to do any work within the
23 Smithbridge subcontract site until he
24 receives instructions otherwise from higher
25 up in the union organisation.
26
27 Correct?
28 A. That's Mr Albert's statement.
29
30 Q. And you are the person higher up in the union
31 organisation to whom Mr Moses reports; correct?
32 A. That's correct.
33
34 Q. And you report to Mr Ravbar?
35 A. That's correct.
36
37 Q. So Mr Smith is getting the run around, isn't he?
38 Because Mr Moses says he has to speak to someone higher up?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. He cannot get in touch with Mr Ravbar despite trying,
42 and you do not bother responding to his email. Is that the
43 position?
44 A. I also --
45
46 Q. Is that the position?
47 A. That is the position.
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1
2 Q. Then going over the page, he sets out the position in
3 considerable detail. He says:
4
5 Mick I understand that you are now the
6 construction organiser for the CFMEU
7 responsible for the Gladstone area, and
8 that this instruction to re commence work
9 needs to come from you.
10
11 That's right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13
14 Q. You are the person higher up in the organisation;
15 correct?
16 A. That's right.
17
18 Q. So you accept that you were the person who gave those
19 instructions, or who would need to give those instructions
20 to Mr Moses?
21 A. I didn't give any instructions to anyone.
22
23 Q. Well, you accept that you were the person higher up in
24 the CFMEU organisation who needs to give instructions of
25 that kind to Mr Moses?
26 A. I give instructions to Mr Moses, but not to the extent
27 of what Mr Smith is alleging.
28
29 Q. I know you did not give an instruction to recommence
30 work. You didn't give that instruction to Mr Moses, did
31 you because --
32 A. I didn't get to speak to Mr Moses.
33
34 Q. -- Smithbridge and Universal had been banned?
35
36 MR AGIUS: I am sorry, I don't know if the witness's
37 answer was recorded while my friend was continuing with his
38 question.
39
40 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
41
42 Q. Could you just repeat your last answer, Mr Robinson?
43 A. I did not get to speak to Mr Moses
44
45 MR STOLJAR: Q. You spoke to him, but you say the line
46 was bad and you were not able to keep talking; is that more
47 accurate?
.04/09/2014 (7) 596 M K ROBINSON (Mr Stoljar)
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1 A. That's correct.
2
3 Q. I won't take you through this entire lengthy email,
4 but if you feel it would help you to put it in context,
5 please take the time to read through it. I wanted to take
6 you to some paragraphs towards the end, page 452 he says:
7
8 Mick I appreciate your desire to get
9 Smithbridge to sign an agreement ... You
10 are welcome to meet with our employees at
11 any time to discuss this matter. However
12 please appreciate that your banning them
13 and our companies from working on this
14 project site after forcing them to pay fees
15 to join the union is not the best way to
16 win their support.
17
18 There is nothing rude or intemperate about this email, is
19 there?
20 A. No, because that conversation did not happen.
21
22 Q. What conversation?
23 A. Well, what he's alleging in that email.
24
25 Q. You mean where he says:
26
27 Mick I appreciate your desire to get
28 Smithbridge to sign an agreement ... You
29 are welcome to meet with our employees at
30 any time ...
31
32 A. I never spoke to Mr Smith in regards to any
33 Smithbridge agreement whatsoever.
34
35 Q. Just come back to the first page. He says in the
36 fourth paragraph:
37
38 My understanding is that the CFMEU will not
39 allow any Smithbridge related work to
40 proceed at the project site until we agree
41 to sign a new EBA with the CFMEU ...
42
43 He is putting that as his understanding; correct?
44 A. That's his understanding, yes.
45
46 Q. And he says:
47
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1 If I have misunderstood your demands then
2 please advise me exactly what the CFMEU are
3 demanding from our company.
4
5 A. Well, I gave him no demands.
6
7 Q. He's pleading with you to explain what the position
8 is?
9 A. And I explained to him in the only conversation I had
10 with him that I would look into it.
11
12 Q. Because the day before, in Gladstone, his men have
13 been kicked off the site; correct?
14 A. Well, the first knowledge I had of that was the
15 conversation I had with Albert Smith.
16
17 Q. You understand that to be the case now, do you not?
18 A. Of course.
19
20 Q. And it was fair enough for him to be pretty concerned
21 about it, don't you think?
22 A. Sure.
23
24 Q. And you do not bother responding to his email, do you?
25 A. No.
26
27 Q. Then we come back to your statement. You say in
28 paragraph 9:
29
30 I did receive an email from Mr Smith on
31 Saturday 1 March 2014 ... Mr Smith also
32 tried to ring me on a number of occasions
33 on Saturday 1 March and Sunday 2 March
34 2014. I didn't take any of his calls as
35 I didn't have anything to say to him, and
36 I didn't need to be dealing with him on
37 a weekend. My wife works on weekends and
38 I had responsibility for my daughter.