Q&A Novel pest management technologies; benefits at the farm gate
MATT KOVAL : Any questions in the-- down in front here's the first one. I should have put my glasses on so I can see the rest. If you could just say who you are and who you represent.
PETER STATELY: I'm Peter Stately from the Australian Dairy Products Federation and Australian Cattle Growers. A question to Andy-- have you ever considered doing an evaluation of the cost effectiveness of your electronic biosensors with good old-fashioned technology, like a well-trained dog?
ANDY: Well, obviously the technology rests or fails based on the fact that it is more cost-effective to run than the whole process of having to train dogs up in a highly specific way. So yeah, the whole business model is built around the fact that it should be much more cost-effective to use those biosensors and then you'll be able to adapt the much more quickly to a whole range of different tasks in the field.
MATT KOVAL : Thank you. One here in the middle
WILL ZACKER: Will Zacker, Biosecurity SA for Andy and Andreas, I suppose-- the challenges are big enough trying to release a virus into the environment. Andy, it would say the gene-drive technology's really taking off. But we are so far behind in a regulatory framework since end of social licence to operate. How are we going to catch that up?
ANDY: So this is one of the-- the thing about technology is technology is never limiting factor, right? The technologies are coming, be they genetic, be they ICT. They're coming into our lives at a very fast fate. The big challenge is around ensuring that we have a licence to operate, that we can use them to generate the benefits we know they can generate.
So you're absolutely right, Will. That's the big challenge. I would be very surprised if permission were given for a gene-drive system to be released in the field within the next 20 years. But that doesn't mean that we can't still develop the regulatory process and the safety aspects of it to be able to achieve that. And just like rabbit bio-control has done, generate benefits that will be for the very long term, particularly as much in a conservation environments as an agriculture environment, and able to manage problems that up to now have been unmanageable.
Andreas Glanznig: And can I just add to that. And if we just look at experience, in the lead up to the release of mixed mitosis in the '30s, there's a lot of public opposition. There was a lot of fear, uncertainty. And that delayed the release by years. But those issues were gradually worked through. And we now have a target-specific, extremely effective bio-control agent. So the social challenge associated with gene drives is not without precedent. And bio-control is a good example.
ANDY: So I was just going to say CRSPR-Cas9 has now is pretty much accepted in the medical industry as a way of cutting and manipulating genomes to help save lives and treat cancer. And it's starting to be used also in the food industry. Gene drive, if you're going to use CRISPR in a gene drive system, you've got to start by targeting a system that everybody agrees has to be targeted as a clear way of getting public buy in.
So if we had a gene-drive system that we could use that we would guarantee could take out cane toads, we might get all of Australia behind us, right? But you need a system in which you're sure to get the public support in what you're trying to do.
CAMERON: Just developing that point about the application of the technology, it might start with looking at the size of the project with the Invasive Animal CRC on fertility controls of pest animals. So to work through to a proof of concept and say, well, the science can do it, but there is a constraint, that constraint might be, well, it won't work with pest animals. But it has a real application for a welfare issue of spaying cattle in northern Australia, where it's in a controlled environment. So it's the same as Andy's point. The technology may actually be deployed in some other area.
MATT KOVAL : Is that Bruce down in front?
BRUCE CHRISTY: Bruce Christy, New South Wales DPI, to just a follow on from the CRSPR, obviously the cane toad in our situation is a much maligned creature, and we don't like it much. But somebody must love it somewhere in the rest of the world. And if you put something in the gene that's going to take out the cane toad in Australia, how are you going to protect those cane toads that live quite happily somewhere else in their own environment?
ANDY: Well, of course, one of the requirements of a gene-drive system is that the total population has to be interacting and reproducing sexually. So, yes, you would have to deal with the fact that somebody might carry a cane toad from northern Australian back to Central America and would then effect the native population.
But, as I say, all the effort now around thinking about gene-drive technology is around understanding those risks and understanding what we can do with the technology to be able to deploy it in a safe way. And that's where the research is still at early phase.
audience: Well, I've got a question for you, Cameron. You mentioned integrative management, so bio-control agents, animal management, pasture management, cattle use and fertiliser, tactical use of herbicides are all tools out there. Why are weeds still a problem? Is it just us, people?
CAMERON: The humans in the system are one part of the issue. And around what are called the geographical context because there's so many combinations. I say we have skilled producers and capable to implement a range of these control processes. They know how to put it all together. Others may not.
But recognising that those particular weeds in a different context, like the range lands versus the middle of Victoria, the challenge is, again, how do I put the various tools together? And I think, as Andy touched on, we are not short of technologies. But it's actually the deployment which is the key. And where we have this constant challenge back onto our production systems, because of things like the breeding and seeding, we need to be quite-- basically it's being diligent to know this is a game plan for 10 years, whether it's no seeding in that particular paddock, with vagaries around climate seasons.
Basically, as I said, people get busy, competition, resources. I don't have cash this year. And that's where all good plans run amok. And hence the constant pressure back on the production system means always these weeds are there. The opportunity from bio-control is that, as I said, it turns the table back on to those target species.
MATT KOVAL: Question to you
audience: Thanks. Biosecurity Queensland.I'm just wondering about the gene-drive technology. That has to be species specific. Like it won't work for feral cats or foxes. It'll only work for species like rabbits that are quite socially close. Because I can't see how it--
ANDY: Well, it doesn't require a social environment because it's not like a disease or like khaleesivirus that gets spread between individuals. It just operates within a sexually reproducing population.
So in theory you could use it for cats, though cats have a relatively long generation time, which means it would take a long time to drive it into the whole population. Of course, the issue with cats is cats get moved around, right? They get transported around the world. So the risk associated with being able to contain your gene drive would be a lot harder.
audience: Sorry.
ANDY: So, well, practicality is if you've got a gene-drive system that's 100% efficient, you only need to introduce one individual into the population with the construct and wait.
audience: It might take a couple of years
ANDY: Yeah, depending on the reproductive rate of your target organism, yeah.
to follow up to that with my idea. There is a risk ofhybridisationtoo if a target species actually mates with another species, isn't there? Is there risk around between hybridization species?
ANDY: Wherever you get gene flow, then there is a risk, yeah. So you need to very closely understand gene flow. So one of the-- well, there are other two target areas that gene drive is being considered particularly by island conservation as a while dealing with really complex conservation issues.
One, as I mentioned, is can we use gene drives to eliminate mosquitoes from Hawaii? And why do we want to eliminate mosquitoes from Hawaii? First, because all of the mosquitoes in Hawaii are introduced. They're all exotics. They tend to be disease-carrying mosquitoes because they're the ones that get moved around the world. And it is mosquitoes that are transmitting avian malaria from the exotic birds at sea level into the need bird populations and wiping them out in Hawaii.
So the only way you can save Hawaiian native birds is to-- or one of the key ways would be to take out the mosquitoes. And gene drive provides an opportunity to do that. Obviously, the gene drive is contained within the mosquito.
As a mosquito population goes into decline through its effectiveness, then the number of your gene-drive constructs in the environment are less. Therefore the risk declines, and the benefit you get to your native bird population increases. So that's one example, for example, where the benefits of the approach are being recognised across multiple organisations.
ANDY GIVENASH: Andy Givenash from University OF Southern Queensland. Will a gene drive ever go extinct?
ANDY: It'll only extinct if the organism you're targeting goes extinct. Unless you-- as I say, there are ways of designing gene drive-- so at the moment, the whole bundle is packaged together. You've got the CRSPR, which is like this your scissors, as I showed. You've got the guide RNA, which tells you where on the genome you want to cut. And then you've got the payload, which is the bad gene package you attach.
If you put all that in together and you introduce it into the population and it's very successful, it'll only die out when the last individual dies that. But there are two ways around that. One is you can break those components into separate entities on different chromosomes, which means they actually have a temporary life because they only come together for a certain number generations. Or the alternative, which is even more controversial, is that you actually have an antidote gene drive that you drive s into the system afterwards to wipe it out. The possibilities are endless once you can play with genomes to the nth degree to that level of precision.
MATT KOVAL : So we are getting close to the end. It's 3:30. So I do thank the three speakers. Today was very interesting. I think gene drive is going to be something we're going to talk about maybe for the next 20 years if that's the way.I do thank you. And I wish you'd join me in thanking the three speakers today. Thanks very much.