NORTH HERTFORDSHIRE DISTRICT COUNCIL HACKNEY CARRIAGE AND
PRIVATE HIRE CONSULTATIVE FORUM
Minutes of the meeting held on Wednesday, 4th March at 10.00 am,
Council Chamber, Council Offices, Gernon Road, Letchworth Garden City
Present:
Mr S Cobb (SC) - Licensing Manager NHDC (Chair)
Mr A Godman (AG) - Head of Housing and Public Protection (delayed arrival)
Mr P Carey - Environmental Health Manager
Mrs A Dell (AD) – MSU Admin Support Officer NHDC
Cllr B Lovewell – Portfolio Holder for Housing and Environmental Health
Erica Page (EP) – Owner/Driver
Helen Hill (HH) – Castles
Mr M Day (MD) - Tiny’s
Mr R Lafferty (RL) – Castles
Mrs C Grant (CG) - Butlers and Meltax
Apologies:
Mr C Broadhurst (CB) - Licensing Officer NHDC
Mrs H Morris (HM) – Licensing Officer NHDC
Mr A Mander (AM) – Owner/Driver
1. INTRODUCTION, HOUSEKEEPING AND APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE
SC opened the meeting with housekeeping and introductions and thanked everybody for attending.
Mr Carey attended as Mr Godman was delayed.
AD was in attendance to record the minutes, and was delayed, the meeting started at 10.10am.
Apologies, as listed above.
SC noted a disappointing number of attendees, from the trade, to todays meeting.
2. MINUTES OF THE PREVIOUS MEETING
Six Month Plates raised by Daniel McDonald.
SC raised concerns that if a vehicle fails the inspection, we need to have confidence that the garage will remove the plate, then inform NHDC. RL stated that the garage should as the car would be unfit to drive. SC repeated his concerns from the last meeting in that costs also might be a concern, however six month plates are not being ruled out, but that all aspects need to be considered.
Cllr Lovewell expressed a concern that we will be putting too much reliance on the garage. PC suggested NHDC speak to the garage, whilst EP highlighted that all taxis use the same garage so this should rule out any problems.
Action: SC to speak directly to Judith at NHH regarding this issue and to get a decision.
RL suggested NHDC could call the driver to issue a verbal warning; however SC stated that this would not be possible as any warnings would need to be issued officially and in writing, again explaining admin costs need to be controlled. SC stated that he believed the proposals of the six month plates could work; Cllr Lovewell agreed and hoped that this could be in place for the next forum meeting.
Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy.
SC explained that the Law Commission Draft Taxi Bill had been looked at but that it would not go through before the General Election in May therefore all parties now have time to look at the Council Policy and carry out a review. SC explained that the policy is a 5 year document and therefore should be fully considered in order for any changes to take place in the scheduled policy renewal in 2016. SC asked that all Forum members consider any potential changes to the policy and to feed this request back to all drivers and others in the trade. The Forum was reminded that they could email SC or email directly to licencing inbox,
The current licensing policy can be found on the internet
http://www.north-herts.gov.uk/index/business/licensing/taxi_licensing/taxi_licensing_policy.htm
SC commented that the Law Commission Bill’s could mean potential deregulation of the trade and could affect the trade; for example the Bill recommends that there be tougher penalties on touting, that licensing authorities could retain the right to limit the number of taxis working in their licensing area and that licensing authorities should be able to review accessibility needs in their area every three years, at the Council’s discretion.
The Bill could also mean private hire operators could passed bookings to an operator in another district, unlike the restriction at the moment of within the district. SC stated that as the licencing authority, we will follow the Law and will make decisions in the interest of public safety.
EP commented that PHV’s, in some cases, were not safe for the public as they take passengers in unlicensed vehicles and using mobile phones, she added that this is happening everyday and that nothing ever gets done. SC disputed that nothing was done, but that NHDC have acted upon her previous reports. He explained that he has placed covert officers in Morrison’s. EP said that the practice of passing passengers between 3 individuals was taking place and that she sees this all the time and this passing is between private hire vehicles that were not pre-booked making it unlawful, plus they were touting for business as the office was not allocating the job. SC stated that if unlawful practises were being carried out this should be reported directly to the licensing officers as we can act on specifics and the more detail given the more useful the information can be. SC noted that PHV’s should not park as if to appear as a HC but as places like Morrison’s is private land, we are restricted on what we can do to prevent them parking this way. SC stated that we can speak to Morrison’s and inform them so that they can make an informed decision on any action they wish to take for their customer’s safety. Unlawful activity should be reported to the police.
3. MATTERS ARISING
As discussed in item 2
4. FEES 2015/16
PC explained that he had no update on Fees, however AG was hoping to arrive during this meeting and when he does, this item would be revisited. See page 4.
RL observed that once again, price of diesel is going up. SC commented that we watch prices very carefully and the overall cost of motoring was still lower than last year.
5. DRIVER RECRUITMENT
RL stated that his drivers are dictating to the operators what they will and will not do; the drivers decide if something is worth their while and if it is not then they won’t go to a fare.
HH stated that owner/drivers are working all the busier shifts plus working into the early hours of the morning, taking the more profitable fares. This has resulted in not enough drivers out in the quieter times, such as early Sunday mornings and HC drivers are now abusing the hours and choosing not to be available for the fares no-one wants. At the moment she is not able to dismiss drivers as they are all employed on a self-employed basis plus there are not enough new drivers coming through. She observed that if this carries on the 3 main taxi companies in Hitchin will not survive.
RL said that taxi companies will “shut up-shop” and MD stated that he is looking to “wind his business up”. HH expressed a concern that the Council are not listening and that the 3 main Hitchin companies will be gone within a year, this was echoed by MD saying that owner/drivers will be all that is left.
HH explained that in all the years she has worked in the trade she feels that things are out of control. Hitchin town is at virtual grid lock and when a customer rings to book a taxi, for an immediate pick up, they are being given times outside of the customers expectation; this is directly because of the lack of drivers available and the highway issues.
RL stated that he holds NHDC “directly responsible for destroying Hitchin Taxis”, MD echoed this. HH described the abuse she and the drivers take (from customers) and she believes this issue is because owner/drivers are not out to ease the supply against the demand. RL stated that his costs cannot be met and that it is easier for owner/drivers as they do not have the overheads. EP said contacting the owner/drivers was an impossible task, she had tried to find a number for an owner/driver but that none were found without difficulty, therefore if the trade cannot find them, how are the public supposed to? As owner/drivers’ numbers are so difficult to obtain, the calls for owner/drivers to take fares and increase the supply of drivers on the road is not happening. As a result of all these issues and that (in the trade’s opinion) the licensing officers didn’t care, RL stated that “Castles is up for sale”.
SC stated that officers do very much care and asked the Forum to analyse why all these issues are happening and what they as members would they do to resolve them.
SC explained, when doing this that the group needs to take into consideration some facts; NHDC and licensing officers do care about what is happening to the trade and that it is always sad when a business is no longer. The licensing team and licensing authorities are governed by what is lawful and what is in the interest of public safety. They are sometimes restricted by legislation and have to treat companies and owner/drivers equally, this is a constant battle we fight as both sides continually want to be treated differently and one always feels that the other has it worse. We do not choose to make life difficult but decisions have to be made within the licensing legislation. Officers are being told weekly that there are not enough drivers due to a lack of recruitment but has the trade considered that driver retention may be likely the cause rather than recruitment. Drivers who come in for the test are frequently asked what their plans are after they have passed the test. Many of them state that they intend to start work with a company until they can afford to be an owner/driver as there is more money to be made. SC said that after the last changes to the knowledge test, a weekly report is run to ascertain recruitment.
From 1st January 2014 to 4th March 2015, there have been:
- 20 candidates
- 11 have passed and are driving
- 9 are partway through, of that 9 six have rebooked and three have relinquished
RL said in his opinion drivers are not looking at taxi driving as a career and just want to get the test passed so they can get out there to make money. More often, he states, the drivers are people who have been made redundant or have had something happen to make them need a career change. He believes that training should be carried out by the operators; it is his opinion that because owner/drivers don’t get actual training in cabs it is bad for the trade. SC explained that they have to be legislative compliant and we cannot grant a licence unless we know that they are fit and proper, and made reference to DBS checks and the knowledge tests help determine this. He stated that we cannot hand drivers over to anyone for further training as there is no legislative requirement and people are free to work for who they wish. RL commented that the Council are putting the trade under constant pressure and operators are on the verge of going broke. PC asked if other authorities are doing this differently. RL asked how many complaints NHDC has received about Castle Taxis. SC stated that he is not able to comment on individuals. MD echoed RL.
SC again asked the trade to offer there experienced opinion as to why drivers leave and work as owner/drivers. MD stated that it was down to a perception that more money can be made as an owner/driver and that they are not governed by the added restrictions of a company and high standard of appearance and performance, plus they can chose their working times and places, therefore they choose not to cover things like the early morning Sunday fare or ones in rural districts.
SC asked the Forum, how would making the test easier resolve these issues? Cllr Lovewell asked are company drivers under contract? RL confirmed that they are not under contract, they are all self-employed. Cllr Lovewell concluded that the problem lies with retention. RL explained that older drivers, leaving the trade due to age is natural retention and the new drivers are not coming in. RL, again, expressed that as owner/drivers are under no liability to take the out of hours fares and for that reason it is putting pressure on the companies to deliver the policy. SC accepted this point but again observed making the test easier would not resolve the retention issue.
Action: SC to look at the number of licences since 1st January 2014 and look at number of HC plates surrendered since 1st January 2014, for next Forum meeting.
SC commented that he often monitors the drivers when on the street. For example he observed 26 vehicles parked on Bancroft and when he asked those drivers if they felt there were enough taxis available at all times and they all stated yes. They are aware our policy offers a 24/7 operation and the state that they think there is enough cover and they are all willing to cover whatever times fares are needed. EP commented that what drivers say to an officer and what they do in reality are two different things. SC concluded that if there was a driver shortage at certain times of the day/week, owner/drivers would soon realise this and target those times as profitable because demand would be outstripping supply; they would see this as an opportunity to make money with less competition. EP said owner/drivers would always work the late nights/early hours of the morning as they know they can charge what they like and customers would pay it as they just want to get home. RL feels that SC and other officers might know the taxi business but they do not know the operator business and that “you are destroying operators” and will end up going to Stevenage. SC stated that personal attacks on him or his officers are not acceptable.
Note: - during this item, AG joined the meeting.
AG asked why drivers were not employed rather than have self employed drivers. RL and MD explained that their businesses could not afford the costs of employed drivers and that drivers would abuse it. MD asked if it possible to “trim” the outside of the areas and the outline areas part of the test as lots of drivers deemed this was an unnecessary part of the test. AG said that 20 drivers is a good number of candidates and the pass rate is good. He suggested that the trade might consider looking as to whether employed drivers on a contract might stay longer, and reduce retention; zero hour contracts might be worth looking at. MD queried that zero hour contract will be under review after the general election. AG said that there will always be exceptions and suggested that taxis maybe one of those. MD echoed previous comments in that he is looking to “sell up”. SC stated that it is always sad to lose operators as the public will always want high standards and trust within the trade. Officers will always listen to lawful suggestions and help wherever we can but that it is our conclusion that retention is the issue not recruitment. No test is perfect but NHDC are confident that this test meets all the necessary criteria for legislation and policy. RL asked if the DSA test is necessary; SC explained that yes because it sets a higher standard and ultimately produces a better driver.