Control/Query Working Group Meeting Agenda
September 12 – September 16, 2005
San Diego, California
General Editor: Anthony (Tony) Julian
Quarter 1, Monday, September 12, 2005
Plenary Session
Quarter 2, Monday, September 12, 2005
Plenary Session
Quarter 3, Monday, September 12, 2005
Topic: Meeting Overview, Co-chair election, Ballot/Proposal Overview, Host XML last 30 minutes
Attendees
FullName / Affiliation / E-mailGrieve, Grahame / Kestral Computing /
Julian, Anthony / Mayo Clinic/Foundation /
Larson, Joann / Kaiser Permanente /
Pratt, Doug / Siemens /
Spronk, René / Ringholm GmbH /
Aitchison, Penny / NPFIT /
Biron, Paul / Kaiser Permanente /
Donnelly, Michael / Epic Systems Corp /
Ghoshal, Adhiraj / Cal2Cal Corporation /
Hinchley, Andrew / HL7 UK /
Jacobs, Jeff / Oracle /
Kemeklis, Darius / VA /
Kligys, Skirmantas / Oracle /
Knapp, Paul / Continovation /
McCay, Charlie / HL7 UK, Ramsey Systems /
Moore, Matt / Oracle /
Oemig, Frank / HL7 Germany /
Peck, Christopher / University of Auckland /
Rontey, Pete / VA /
Ruggeri, Roberto / Microsoft /
Snelick, Robert / NIST /
Stuart, Sandy / Kaiser Permanente /
Agenda
# / Key / Description / Presenter / Action Needed / Time1 / Call to Order
2 / Agenda approval – this session
3 / Noordwikerhout Minutes Review / 5 ( 1- 3)
4 / Agenda approval – summary for the week / 5
5 / Announcements / 5
6 / Co-chair Election (dependent on arrival of TSC chair)
7 / Action Items Closed Since Noordwijkerhout
8 / Mission Statement Review
9 / Decision Making Practices Highlights / 5 (7 -8)
10 / V3 Ballot Overview / 10
11 / V2 Ballot status / 10
12 / V3 proposal overview / 10
13 / XML issues / 30
14 / Adjournment
I.Call to Order
Introductions were performed. The meeting was called to order by the chair, Rene Spronk, at 13:50 PM PDT. Grahame Grieve was the scribe. Quorum attained.
II.Agenda approval – this session
Approved by consensus.
III.Nordwikerhout Minutes Review
Minutes were approved upon a motion by Grahame Grieve; second by Joann Larson. 10-0-0
IV.Agenda approval – summary for the week
Discussion: NHS Batch proposal to be discussed either Tues Q2 or Q3
Approved upon a motion by Joann Larson and second by Sandy Stuart. 11-0-0
V.Announcements
There has been a lot of work happening on by-laws, getting ready to ballot by-laws. There is an open session Wed Q1 and Q2. There is a number of things of interest to C/Q, including the question of what it means to be a member of a committee. This will be clarified.
There is a proposal to change the name of the TSC – will be Subject Area co-coordinating panel. TC will become an area committee.
There are also major changes to the balloting process. These were discussed. There is concern with some of the proposed changes, and people will watch the changes with interest.
A forgotten agenda item: We have to tell you what we have done between the last WGM and this one. We have done so many things that we invite interested members to consult the minutes.
The attendance records – but not the minutes – were lost at the WGM in Noordwijkerhout. A vote was held to approve the minutes on a telecon in May.
VI.Election of co-chair
Grahame Grieve was re-elected as co-chair for a 2 year period.
VII.Action Items Closed Since Noordwijkerhout
Action items have been moved into a database. Joann reviewed the action items that CQ has closed since the May WGM. The document containing these closed action items is appended to these minutes.
VIII.Mission Statement Review
The draft new mission statement for C/Q has been discussed at the last 2 WGM’s and approved at both the last WGM and on subsequent telecons. The proposal includes changing the name of the C/Q committee. The changes will be presented to the TSC for approval tonight. The most recent version of the mission statement is attached.
IX.Decision Making Highlights
We are adopting a new set of decision making practices. There are minor modifications from our previous practices. Significant changes include:
- Members may only carry a single proxy. Proxies must be declared prior to the meeting.
- A motion to revisit an issue during a WGM has the same notification requirements as the ones listed for WGM agendas
- A motion to revisit an issue on a telephone conference call is to be posted no later than 3 business days before the call. There was some discussion about 3 days, it was agreed that 3 days was OK
Document as presented is attached.
Motion to accept these changes. Moved Joann Larson, Seconded Sandy Stuart. 11-1-0 (1 abstention)
Action Item: modified document will be submitted to HQ by Rene Spronk so they can post it to the web site. Action Item 964
X.V3 Ballot Overview
The following reflects Votes, not line items.
Document / Affirmatives / Negatives / Abstain / Quorum / Pass / Comment pkgsMaster File / Registry MFMI / 27 / 2 / 22 / Y / Y/27
Transmission Infrastructure / 18 / 17 / 15 / Y / N/24
Abstract Transport Specification / 2 / 42 / 5 / Y / N/30
Webservices DSTU / 1 / 34 / 6 / Y / N/24
XI.V2 Ballot Overview
The following reflects Votes, not line items.
Document / Negatives / Affirmatives / Abstain / Quorum / Pass / Comment pkgsV2.6 / 27 / 25 / 6 / Y / N / 4
CH 02 / Y / Y
CH 05 / Y / N
CH 08 / Y / Y
XII.V3 Proposal Overview
There is a number of proposals from Canada concerning the Shared message wrappers. This will be fitted into the hot topics quarter (Thurs Q4). There is a UK batch proposal that will be discussed then. There is also harmonization proposals that were rejected and we need to look at. These will be handled out of session due to lack of available time.
There is a ping proposal. This has been accepted, but needs to be treated as a shared message.
There is also a proposal for removable media, to support transmission of HL7 V3 messages on a CD or memory stick.
There is also a proposal for undo a control-act. This will be discussed at MnM Fri Q2. This is clearly a very hot topic.
XIII.XML Issues
Issue: Agenda time for next meeting (Scottsdale). XML feels, as a SIG, that they no longer need extra time. Two quarters, since there is not enough work to take away from the C/Q table. Unless new business arises, the SIG should folded in a meeting or two. The XML SIG only has a quarter and a bit joint meeting with the XML sig at this time.
Motion: XML SIG meet with C/Q quarter Monday, and Thurs Q1 in Jan. Thurs Q3 will remain as abstract datatypes. Moved Charlie McCay, Seconded Sandy Stuart. Approved 17-0-0
XML agenda: W3C updates, issues related to the XML being too big, complex, or not “using mainstream XML”, release 2 issues, and approving the changes to the normative data types and structures ITS document (Note that the final documents have changed recently). We will vote to approve the two documents on Thursday morning. The documents can be on the normative edition preview site or copies can be obtained from the chairs through this meeting.
There was some negative line items associated with the XML attachments in the transmission ballot. These have been referred to Charlie for consideration.
XIV.Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned at 15:01 P.M. PDT upon a motion by Joann Larson and second by Sandy Stuart.
Quarter 4, Monday, September 12, 2005
Topic: Conformance Issues; V2 Ballot Reconciliation
Attendees
FullName / Affiliation / E-mailJulian, Anthony / Mayo Clinic/Foundation /
Larson, Joann / Kaiser Permanente /
Donnelly, Michael / Epic Systems Corp /
Gallagher, Len / National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) /
Lyons, John / Siemens /
Marshall, Glen / Siemens /
Martin, Michael / Clemson LPH /
Oemig, Frank / HL7 Germany /
Peck, Christopher / University of Auckland /
Rontey, Pete / VA /
Snelick, Robert / NIST /
Stuart, Sandy / Kaiser Permanente /
Agenda
# / Key / Description / Presenter / Action Needed / Time1 / Call to Order
2 / Agenda approval – this session
3 / Announcements / 5 (1-3)
4 / Evaluate need for meeting in Scottsdale
5 / Action Items / 10
6 / Conformance Issues
7 / V2 Ballot Reconciliation
8 / Adjournment
I.Call to Order
The meeting was called to order by the chair, Joann Larson , at 15:35 PM PDT. Tony Julian was the scribe. Quorum attained.
II.Agenda approval – this session
Approved upon a motion by Frank and second by Sandy. 7-0-0
III.Announcements
.No announcements
IV.Evaluate need for meeting in Scottsdale
The agenda will be left as is. Conformance will notify CQ if there are no issues to discuss.
V.Action Items
Action Items
# / Description / Who / History/Update / Status / Area32 / 20050127: CQ WGM: ask the Conformance SIG to work on a dynamic discovery message for supported features by the receiver (profile ids, application roles, interactions, responseModeCodes) / CQ co-chairs / 20050127: CQ WGM Orlando: Added. Ask the Conformance SIG to work on a dynamic discovery message for supported features by the receiver (profile ids, application roles, interactions, responseModeCodes)
20050502: Clarified that this is v3, not v2. Len Gallagher has been writing a white paper on the dynamic model which may have some bearing on this item. / Open / conform
107 / 20050502: provide list of terms / Lisa Carnahan / 20050502: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout: Will provide list of terms
20050912:CQ WGM SanDiego. Lisa not present – will review. / conform
108 / 20050502: Provide definition for realm / Lisa Carnahan / 20050502: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout:
20050912:CQ WGM SanDiego. Lisa not present – will review. / conform
8 / 20030912: take length discrepancies for certain item numbers to ARB. Our feeling is that it is legitimate to have different lengths. / Joann Larson / 20041214: CQ Telcon: not done
20050124: CQ WGM Orlando: still open
20050201: CQ Telcon: Need to revisit lengths that we had agreed to change in response to Frank Oemig's votes to make consistent with datatype definition in Chapter 2a. Graham approached ARB and they thought that the ARB guidelines would stand, would be big change, recommended that we don't do it. PUBs meeting; Pubs opposed to making the change too. Don't want this to force a new ballot.
20050502: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout: Want to ask a new question of the ARB – motion as follows: Straw poll of intention to make a change in v2.7 to remove length information from the standard and include it as part of conformance profile. Conformance would add language to chapter 2B as appropriate from chapter 2 or 2A regarding the minimum length needed. (Larson/Oemig) 8-0-0
20050805: Length proposal for v2.7 has been submitted by Frank Oemig.
20050826: Larson: It is no longer clear to me if we still need this Action item. Maybe we close it now that there is a proposal. Or, do we bring our straw proposal to the ARB? That doesn't seem right. Probably it should have gone to the TSC, but it is too late to get on the agenda. Maybe it should go to the pubs meeting?
20050912:Discussed by conformance, Closed in deference to the proposal / Closed / V2
13 / 20050124: Advise John Quinn of length consistency decision / 20050124: WGM Orlando. Decision made to make fields with complex data types like XCN consistent in length. This is substantive. Does this mean v 2.7 is forced? If yes, can it be done at membership level
20050826: Larson: This item should be closed. It is covered by item 8.
Discussed by conformance, Closed in deference to the proposal / Closed / V2
15 / 20050124: For Version 2.7, add language to Chapter 2 to the effect that “CQ does not express an opinion at this time on the restarting of set IDs relative to groups or message.” / Tony Julian / 20050124: CQ WGM Orlando: Motion approved
20050506: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout:edit needs to be done in 2.7
20050826: Larson: this item needs a proposal submitted to the v2 database and then it can be closed. / Open / V2
20 / 20050125: Bring length consistency for complex data types to ARB for resolution / Grahame G / 20050125: CQ WGM Orlando: added. Considered whether to set XCN to maximum length of 3220 for consistency across chapters. We need some kind of cross-domain resolution of this item.
20050201: CQ Telcon: Graham approached ARB and they thought that the ARB guidelines would stand, would be big change, recommended that we don't do it. PUBs meeting; Pubs opposed to making the change too. Don't want this to force a new ballot.
20050826: Larson: close because it is duplicative in intent with #8 and has already been done.
20050912: Discussed by conformance, Closed in deference to the proposal / Closed / V2
35 / 20050201: Revisit length changes / 20050201: CQ Telcon: Need to revisit lengths that we had agreed to change in response to Frank Oemig’s votes to make consistent with datatype definitionin Chapter 2a. Graham approached ARB and they thought that the ARB guidelines would stand, would be big change, recommended that we don’t do it. PUBs meeting; Pubs opposed to making the change too. Don’t want this to force a new ballot.
20050208: CQ Telcon: M/M/S Julian/Pratt To leave sizes as they are, and fix in 2.7. 4-0-2
20050506: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout: has been talked about this meeting, still open for 2.7
20050805: Length proposal for v2.7 has been submitted by Frank Oemig.
20050826: Larson: Close because it is duplicative of item #8. / Closed / V2
VI.Conformance Issues
Conformance is suggesting that the length of a segment should be dropped, except in 2b, where while the constraining profile may not limit the length, implementing profile may limit the length to that supported by the implementation. This is in proposal 435 which came with a unanimous recommendation from the conformance SIG.. There was no solid argument for not using this. The specification should be kept clean, and the things that change over time should be kept in the profile.
From 2.5.3.2 “Maximum length
Definition: Maximum number of characters that one occurrence of the data field may occupy.
In the segment attribute tables this information is in a column labeled LEN.
The maximum length is not of conceptual importance in the abstract message or the HL7 coding rules. The length of a field is normative. Changes to the field length may be negotiated by a site agreement such as a conformance profile. See section,"2B, "Conformance Using Message Profiles".. When this is done, it shall not render the implementation non-conformant. The receiver must be able to receive up to the maximum field length, and the sender can send up to the maximum field length.
“
Action Items
# / Description / Who / History/Update / Status / AreaVote
SEQ / Key / Motion / Moved/second / Y-N-A / CommentVII.V2 Ballot Reconciliation
In discussion Joann gave the gavel to Tony to discuss the proposal, and then retrieved it. Discussion centered on the impossibility of reconciling negatives when all of the chapters are not submitted for ballot.
Vote
SEQ / Key / Motion / Moved/second / Y-N-A / Comment29 / Motion to see a consistent standard. Lets bring forward to the TSC a motion to nullify the work we have so far, and start a new membership ballot as soon as possible. Joann reminded that the TSC may not accept motions unless it may be applied to TSC business already proposed. / Oemig/Stuart. / 7-0-3
VIII.Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned at 5:00 P.M. PDT upon a motion by Oemig and second by Stuart.
Quarter 1, Tuesday, September 13, 2005
Topic: Host joint CQ/PM/PA v3 Master File / Registry project; MFMI Ballot Reconciliation
Attendees
FullName / Affiliation / E-mailLarson, Joann / Kaiser Permanente /
Pratt, Doug / Siemens /
Spronk, René / Ringholm GmbH /
Brown, Louise / HL7 Canada /
Burggraaf, Adiraan / HL7 NL /
Connor, Kathleen / Fox Systems, INC /
Currie, Ray / Quovadx /
Daoust, Norman / Daoust Associates /
Drijfhout, Helen / HL7 NL / h.drijfhout.nl
Gluck, Edgar / CEN /
Grant, Robert / HL7 Canada /
Guinn, Barry / Epic /
Henket, Alexander / HL7 NL /
Hoang, Sandy / Oracle /
Isobel, Frean / HL7 Australia /
Jongeneel, Irma / HL7 NL /
Kligys, Skirmantas / Oracle /
Macary, Francois / ACFA /
Moores, Matt / Oracle /
Puyenbrook, Jennifer / HL7 staff /
Rosploch, June / Kaiser Permanente /
Salvail, Leon / Global Village Consulting, INC /
Seppala, Greg / VHA /
Shaver, Dave / Neotool /
Stuart, Sandy / Kaiser Permanente /
Thomas, Greg / Kaiser Permanente /
Tucker, Mark / Regenstrief /
Agenda
# / Key / Description / Presenter / Action Needed / Time1 / Call to Order
2 / Agenda approval
3 / Announcements / 5 (1-3)
4 / Action Items / 10
5 / MFMI Ballot Reconciliation
6 / Project Continuation
7 / Registry Use of UpdateMode
8 / Undo methodology
9 / Link vs merge - what does this mean in a registry environment
10 / Registry use of HL7 audit history methodology
11 / Evaluate need for joint meeting at Scottsdale
12 / Adjournment
I.Call to Order
The meeting was called to order by the chair, Joanne Larson, at 9:20am AM PDT. Leon Salvail was the scribe. Quorum attained.
II.Agenda approval – this session
Modified to move evaluate need for joint meeting to end.
Approved as modified upon a motion by June Rosbloch and second by Sandy Stuart.
III.Announcements
Louise Brown would like to see a new Project Manager if required (not required as project is closing down).
IV.Action Items
.
Action Items
# / Description / Who / History/Update / Status / Area957 / 20050726: Ensure that previous ballot name for MFMI appears in the Preface. / Tony Julian / 20050726: CQ Telcon: Joann reported that HQ needs for us to include the previously balloted name in the preface. This document was originally balloted as a component of the Infrastructure Management document which was last balloted March 2004 as Release 1, membership level 4. / Open / MFMI
58 / 20040928: Clean up the list of terms definitions after business models have been described / Robert Grant / 20041118: CQ Telcon: No update available
20050125: Open. Waiting for models to be finalized.
20050503: No change
20050913: No change. Will be cleaned up and packaged with project deliverables. / Open / Reg
59 / 20040928: Upload current draft docs to new project specific docs page / Jean Spohn / 20050125: CQ WGM Orlando: Dependant on 307; not done. Docs currently list serve distribution (issue with size)
20050503: Size increased but still waiting on Mike for website setup before uploading docs
20050913: Still no project page. Talk to Jenni P. about this if needed (if project continues). / Closed / Reg
No longer applicable
60 / 20040928: Ask Mike to create a new registry project webpage for uploading / Gregg Seppala / 20041118: CQ Telcon: Gregg has talked to Mike. Mike agreed to do this. Would show at the bottom of the SIG list. Not done yet. Gregg to follow-up.
20050125: CQ WGM Orlando:Still waiting on Mike.
20050503: CQ WGM Noordwijkerhout: Waiting on Mike for website
20050913: Still no project page. Talk to Jenni P. about this if needed (if project continues). / Close / Reg
No longer applicable
61 / 20040928: Add description of role.StatusCode issue to the preface / Rene Spronk / New
62 / 20040928: Make proposal to add role.StatusCode to next release / Rene Spronk / New
63 / 20040928: Contact Jenni P. regarding closing project down / Louise Brown / New
V.MFMI Ballot Reconciliation
Vote
SEQ / Key / Motion / Moved/second / Y-N-A / CommentFind persuasive and add role.StatusCode attribute. Jenni P. made friendly amendment to make this resolution pending ARB approval to going back to membership ballot (rather than committee ballot). / Rene Spronk / Leon Salvail / Rene withdrew motion
Find persuasive and add role.StatusCode attribute. Jenni P. made friendly amendment to make this resolution pending ARB approval to going back to membership ballot (rather than committee ballot). / Leon Salvail / Mark Tucker / 6-6-11 / Suspended vote to review chair voting rules. Leon Salvail withdrew motion.
Find non-persuasive to add role.StatusCode since this is not an implementation impediment, and to make the change would be substantive. Future consideration can be given without backwards comp. Issues. / Bob Grant / Louise Brown / 17-0-5 / Motion carries
Find non-persuasive the ballot negative regarding HMD descriptions missing since HMD descriptions are not required. / Leon Salvail / Bob Grant / 17-0-4 / Motion carries
VI.Evaluate need for joint meeting at San Diego