FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 19th, 1999
--- Upon commencing at 10:05 a.m.
--- Accused present
GARRETT NELSON, previously sworn
THE REGISTRAR: Are counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MR. COOPER: Content.
MS. MULLIGAN: Yes. Thank you.
MR. MORRIS: Yes. Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Mulligan.
MS. MULLIGAN: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued) BY MS. MULLIGAN:
Q. Mr. Nelson, we had started to talk yesterday about your early statements to the police; I want to go back to that time period for a moment. First of all, had you and your family ever been involved in a murder investigation before?
A. No.
Q. So this was not commonplace, this wasn't an everyday happening for you?
A. No.
Q. So when the police wanted to talk to you your position, as I understand your evidence, is that you didn't sit down with Denis or Rhonda and say 'what's this all about?'
A. I remember on one occasion asking Denis what he knew about and I explained yesterday that the only thing he said was he had to do something he didn't want to do and that was about the height of anything that was discussed towards that.
Q. He said he had to do something he didn't want to do.
A. Right.
Q. However, Denis did want you to speak to the police the first time, he urged you to speak to the police, he was bugging you to speak to the police?
A. Yes.
Q. Your sister as well?
A. Not really. At the time my sister wasn't the motivation then. She didn't tell me to, either way she didn't say anything at that time.
Q. And at that time, sir, she hadn't told you about these threats that Rhonda received in Fort Saskatchewan to sell her baby?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. But you would agree, sir, on the first occasion that you primarily spoke to the police as a favour to Denis, is that not right?
A. Primarily, yes.
Q. And Denis, you felt, at that point at least, you felt like you maybe owed him a little, he may have indeed saved your life when he brought you and your family to Ottawa from Calgary?
A. Oh I don't know if he saved my life but yeah, he helped me out, sure.
Q. Well did you feel at some point that he may have saved your life, have you testified to that, sir?
A. Yeah, I believe I did testify to that saying that he got me out of a situation. Yeah, he could've very well saved my life at the time.
Q. So Mr. Gaudreault apparently had some money in and around December 28th, he brought you and your wife and he paid at least one fare for one of the children, right?
A. I don't know if he paid for one of the children. I know he did pay for me and Kim.
Q. Okay. And you got here, it was kind of a short notice in the Christmas season for the plane fare?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't remember how much it was, I assume?
A. No I don't.
Q. You certainly didn't have that kind of money at the time?
A. No I didn't.
Q. When you came to Ottawa, sir, you didn't pay any rent?
A. No.
Q. You personally, I think said, were using three to four grams a day of cocaine?
A. Approximately, yes.
Q. And that's approximately three or four hundred dollars worth of drugs daily?
A. No, I don't think it was that much because if you buy it in quantity then it gets cheaper. I'd say more like 50 or $ 60. a gram.
Q. And was Mr. Gaudreault buying his drugs in quantity at that time?
A. Yeah, he was.
Q. When you say quantity, what kind of quanti- ties was Mr. Gaudreault buying at one time back then?
A. Oh anywhere from a quarter to half an ounce.
Q. But Denis was supplying you, Denis Gau- dreault was supplying you with all these drugs, you weren't paying for any of it, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And he was using seven or eight grams a day as far as you could tell.
A. Yeah, approximately.
Q. All right. So that would be another, even on a discounted rate, another five or $ 600. a day.
A. Yeah.
Q. And you said you saw Jamie Declare smoking some, and was I correct in understanding your evidence that
sometimes he paid Mr. Gaudreault for it and sometimes he didn't?
A. I can't say if he did pay or not. The times that I saw him use it yeah, he did pay Denis for it. Other times he was using it I didn't see money exchange hands so I can't say if he did or not.
Q. And Kim Lane was smoking some cocaine with you too, right?
A. On occasion. Not very much.
Q. All right. On occasion. Did she ever pay or did you ever pay for her drugs?
A. I never paid and I never saw her pay either so I can't .....
Q. So Mr. Gaudreault was supplying the house- hold with drugs.
A. Well me and him, like I said it was on occasion with Kim, and as for Jamie I don't know, that was
between them.
Q. Okay. Well he was also supplying some hash, marijuana, was he?
A. Oh yeah. Yes.
Q. For everyone in the household?
A. I wasn't smoking much hash and marijuana then.
Q. But you didn't pay for that either.
A. No.
Q. You said at some point, sir, that Kim and the children went to Montreal at some point during that month of January?
A. That's right.
Q. How did they get there?
A. By bus.
Q. By bus? And did you go with them when they left?
A. No I didn't.
Q. How many days after they left roughly did you go?
A. Maybe ..... I can't say for sure. If I'd guess it'd be about a week, maybe a little longer.
Q. And was there ever a time when you went to Montreal to see your father or something to that effect, or was this the same occasion?
A. No, my father has never lived in Montreal.
Q. Okay. What about Kim's father, did he live in Montreal?
A. No, he's just outside of Ottawa here; I couldn't tell you where.
Q. Okay. Sir, I'm going to suggest to you that when you made this trip to Montreal it was some time before you say that this newspaper incident happened; is that right?
A. I wouldn't be able to answer that because I don't know. Like I said it was approximately a week or so after she left that I followed her over there for a couple of days.
Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to look at your evidence from December 1st, 1995 at page 53. Do you see the question:
"Q.Now, did you make your trip to Montreal before the newspaper incident, the same day or after the newspaper incident?"
And your answer is:
"A.I think it was just before, it was right in around that time."
A. Yes, that's what it says.
Q. Does that help you? Does that assist you?
A. I'm sorry, it doesn't really ring a bell. Like I said I think it was just before but .....
Q. Okay. And when you testified in 1995 you were doing your best to tell the truth, right?
A. Yes I was.
Q. And you really do believe that it was just before or right around that time but just before the newspaper incident that you went to visit your wife and children.
A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q. And how long were you there?
A. Two or three days.
Q. So you were in Montreal two or three days. So I guess you came back ---
A.Yes.
Q.--- just before the newspaper incident.
A. I'm not sure. I think somewhere in my last testimony I gave I think I cleared that up that it was afterwards but I'm not sure. I was there about two or three days but .....
Q. You just can't say at this point.
A. No I can't.
Q. Okay. Let's talk again about the newspaper incident. First of all you talked about how you went and looked something up at the library back in '95, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. You had taken a journalism course some years back, had you not?
A. Well I started to take but I never finished it. I got a certification in creative writing and I didn't finish all the way through the journalism course but I did take some of it, yes.
Q. But you said that one reason you were going to look up these newspapers in '95 was something to do with creative writing. Are you talking about the same thing?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you finish that course as far as you were going to go in it, when was that taken?
A. Oh I started the first one, you'd have to look at my criminal record because it was started through a correspondence through Wilkinson Correctional Centre, ---
Q.M'hmm-hmm.
A.--- so it would've been '94 or something like that, and the first one I took was through, yeah, it would've been in and around here, in '93, end of '93, mid '93.
Q. All right. So you took one in '93. Did you take any more journalism or creating writing courses after that?
A. Yeah, well I believe I took another one just before and it had to do with editorial and stuff like that. It was another correspondence course.
Q. Just before what? You took another one ---
A. Before this one here.
Q. Okay. But the last one you took was in 1993.
A. Yes.
Q. So when you went to the library it didn't have much to do with a course on creative writing or journalism, right?
A. Well it did. I said in my testimony that I was thinking about taking courses and I had taken one course but it was -- a lot of it was selfstudy and I don't know, it was just something I was interested in.
Q. You were familiar, then, with how to look up newspapers on microfilm, right?
A. It's pretty basic, it doesn't take much to really figure out.
Q. You also said something about memoirs, sir. Are you planning to write a book about this case?
A. I don't know if I'm going to write a book, it could be a screenplay or something, but yeah, I'm interested in doing something like that.
Q. A screenplay about this case.
A. Well not necessarily about this case. My life.
Q. Have you testified before that it would involve this case?
A. Oh yeah, yeah, that's part of my life.
Q. I said that I would check for you to see when you first mentioned Michel Vanasse being with Rob Stewart on the day of the newspaper event. I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that was on November 14th, 1995 when you were being pre- pared to testify in 1995. Do you recall that?
A. Can you tell me whereabouts? In November, that was the first time I was up here for a deposition or some- thing to that effect?
Q. No.
A.No?
Q.November 14th '95 before you testified in another proceeding you were prepared to testify, you met with Detective Ralko and Mr. Cooper?
A. Whereabouts is that?
Q. I'll tell you in just a second. At page
899 of Detective Ralko's notes November 14th, 1995. At the bottom of the page, sir, you indicate that you "see him stand- ing in the foyer by the door" and I don't know what the next word is "came the one occasion is the newspaper incident. Sure he read article that day." This is the guy that you described with the glasses, we're talking about the same person, right?
MR. COOPER: Which word couldn't you understand? "pretty sure".
MS. MULLIGAN: "pretty sure".
THE WITNESS: Yeah, as far as I can tell that is the first time I mentioned him.
MS. MULLIGAN:
Q. Okay. And just so there's no mystery to this, on each occasion when you testify you sit down and you review your statements and your transcripts and you're interviewed by the police and the Crown attorney; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And before you testified at the previous proceeding do you remember you spent portions of about eight different days doing that?
A. Eight different days.
Q. M'hmmhmm.
A. I can't say for sure how many days it was. Yeah, eight or nine days, yeah.
Q. Okay. And then on this occasion you spent a couple of days doing the same thing?
A. Yes, two days.
Q. All right. And sometimes notes are generated out of that and you initialled when you remembered something new, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. So going back to the incident, sir, you're there with Denis in the kitchen, Rob Stewart comes in, he throws the newspaper down on the table, there are possibly two other people in the house but you don't know who they are; is that right? Have I got it right?
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. And if someone was this townhouse isn't a great huge place, is it?
A. Well it's not huge, no.
Q. So if someone was speaking loudly in the kitchen with the open doorway going into the dining room/living room area and the open doorway going into the hallway, if some-
one is speaking loudly in the kitchen you would hear them in the living room, right?
A. It depends on how much -- you know, that all depends if you were trying to listen for something like that or not, or if the t.v. was on or if maybe one of the babies were crying. I don't know. I can't say if I would've heard it or not.
Q. Well on this date, sir, when you say this newspaper incident took place, were the t.v.s on and babies crying and ---
A. I can't recall. I'm just telling you I don't know. I'm explaining from my point of view that I don't know if I'd hear of anybody yelling in the kitchen or not.
Q. Okay. Now you say he brought in several pages of a newspaper, maybe a section, maybe a whole paper, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And then you say he next moves to the living room where there are people in the living room.
A. Yes.
Q. And he pins either the whole paper, a sec- tion of the paper or some part of the paper into the wall.
A. That's correct.
Q. And you don't know which.
A. No, I can't say for sure which.
Q. You don't recall whether there were like pages falling down or ---
A. No I don't.
Q. I believe you've testified in the past that he may have actually stapled the thing right up there to the wall.
A. I don't think that's exactly what I said. I said I didn't know if he stapled it, used a tack. He could've stuck it up there with a knife for all I know.
Q. All right. Well let's talk about that for a second. When I say he may have, you're saying anything is possible, you've no idea how it was stuck on the wall.
A. No, I can't say for sure how it was stuck up there.
Q. But Mr. Stewart moved away from it, this either whole newspaper, section of a newspaper or an article, and it didn't fall down.
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. You didn't see a stapler?
A. No.
Q. Staple gun?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. He didn't have a hammer and a nail or any- thing like that?
A. Not that I remember, no.
Q. And you said for all you know he could've even stuck a knife right into the wall.
A. Like I said I don't know how he put it up there.
Q. But you were in the living room at the time when it happened.
A. Yes.
Q. Now the only thing that you recall Mr. Stewart saying in English is "This is what happens to people who don't pay their bills" -- right? -- or "don't pay their debts"?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't recall him saying anything else in English that you were able to hear.
A. No.
Q. And when does he say is this in the kit- chen where you hear him say "This is what happens to people who don't pay their bills" or when is this?
A. That's when he first comes in with the paper, yes.
Q. So when he puts a portion or all or some of the paper on the wall with something, does he say anything at that point?
A. I'm pretty sure at that point I left the living room.
Q. Okay. But you leave the living room, sir, you said you went upstairs, right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So you see the thing go on the wall?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you had to get up from the couch?
A. Well, he'd started lecturing somewhere, he was loud and it had nothing to do with me and, you know, I couldn't really care what he had to say so I left. I could care less, you know, it wasn't you know, it wasn't something that's really pertained to me, so .....
Q. And that discussion, that lecturing or whatever was going on, was in French, was it not?
A. No. The only for sure time that I know he said French is when he first came in but like I said it wasn't a long sentence, I don't know, he said a few words. I don't even know what he said, you know, it sounded like swear words
I've heard Denis say a few swear words before, you know, I can't say for sure what he was saying. And when I left to go upstairs I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying, I didn't have any reason to pay attention to what he had to say.
Q. All right. December 1st '95, sir, page 42, the evidence you gave on that date.
A. Sorry, what was that date, ma'am?
Q. December 1st, page 42.
A. Yes?
Q. All right. You're asked the question and this is after you've moved from the kitchen to the living room:
"Q.Okay, I'll return to that fellow in a moment, but what happens in the living room?
A.I'm sitting on the couch and I'm not sure if Denis sat beside me or if he sat on the loveseat, which is over here and the couch is here, and Rob put a chunk of the paper on the wall.