CITY OF NOWTHEN
PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2009 @ 7:30 P.M.
(Minutes are being taped for transcribing purposes only)
Present: Barry Wagner Jeff Pilon Melanie Kern
Jim Scheffler Dale Ames Robert Mahutga
Harold Jorgensen Mary Rainville
Absent: Al Ulwelling
Others: Barry Olson,
Building Official
Guests: D. Daniel Licht, AICP
Northwest Associated Consultants
Chairman Ames called the meeting to order at 7:33 PM
· Pledge of Allegiance
· Approve/Amend tonight’s meeting agenda – February 24th, 2009
Pilon made motion to amend tonight’s meeting agenda of February
24th, 2009 by allowing item #3 – Floor Items to be Item #1 instead.
Rainville seconded the this motion to amend the order of the agenda
Items, all in favor; motion carried.
· Approve/Amend the January 27, 2009 Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes - Rainville made motion to approve January 27, 2009 Planning & Zoning Meeting Minutes. Pilon seconded the motion all in favor; motion carried.
1. Floor Items - None
2. Review Draft of Comprehensive Plan Issues/Policy Plan Sections
(D. Daniel Licht, AICP of Northwest Associated Consultants).
D. Daniel Licht, AICP of Northwest Associated Consultants said that
this first portion of the draft 2009 Nowthen Comprehensive Plan is
comprised of the introduction, community perspectives and goals and
policies sections and are the foundation of the land use and other
system plans that together comprise the comprehensive plan document.
Mr. Licht said that City of Nowthen is considered Diversified Rural
and Met Council is looking for designation of portion of land to be
set aside for sometime after 2030 period. The Planning & Zoning
Commission had narrowed it down to the East side. Mr. Licht said
during his phone call to Met Council, they had agreed with the East
side and he asked them to put it in writing. When the letter dated
February 19, 2009 was sent to us from Met Council, they had added
that they also wanted land on the west side on Nowthen’s southern
border next to Ramsey. He said that Shane Nelson, Engineer and he
have not had a chance to look at what they are requesting or talk to
them as to how large an area they are seeking, but he says their
intent at this point would be to shoot holes in that request for the
area in the west to be saved for sewer. As noted in their letter
they say it’s about a mile from where sewer is expected to end in
Ramsey.
City of Nowthen
Planning & Zoning Meeting Feb. 24, 2009 Page 2
That’s a pretty good size distance that you are going to go
to intercept their sewer just to serve what looks to be a smaller
area along the border of 250 acres at most. That would create
service delivery problems for Nowthen and also create capability
issues with the areas surrounding it. Mr. Licht said his intent is
to eliminate that area for having set aside for sewer.
Ames pointed out that another thing that was different in the letter
from the P & Z’s recommendation was that it said 770 acres instead of
744 acres as recommended at our January P & Z meeting. Mr. Licht
said yes he agreed and said that wasn’t even what they had told the
city at their community meeting that they held in November or what
they represented to other cities surrounding Nowthen as well.
Pilon asked if the other comment from their letter of saying a
maximum density of 1 residential unit per 10 acres and noted that 1
unit per 20 is more desirable – if this wasn’t the first time that
had ever been mentioned by Met Council? Mr. Licht said they can only
require 1 per 10 acres not 1 per 20 acres as the letter suggests.
Ames questioned if Met Council could be told that it would be better
to take only the southern portion? Mr. Licht said it is cheaper to
take larger tracks of undeveloped lands versus areas where it has
already been divided into developments.
Ames said it is a big expense wherever it will go. Mr. Licht agreed.
Ames said that Benny Amborn, our former building inspector, had
stated before that it doesn’t made sense what they are asking for.
He says it makes more sense to come up from the south up toward
Nowthen, because this is where the commercial is going to be growing.
It absolutely doesn’t make sense what they are trying to recommend
here. He said they tried the same thing down in Coon Rapids too. He
said every time, they take one step at a time, they don’t grab like
they are asking from Nowthen.
Mr. Licht said Met Council looks at what land is left and open.
Rainville said that Met Council’s letter said it asks us to consider
protecting and doesn’t say we have to do it. Mr. Licht says that is
one of the questions of how firm are they going to be on this?
Ultimately they can require as part of the plan that it be set aside,
but can we make an argument that says no it shouldn’t be preserved.
Rainville and Kern thought that yes we should make that argument.
Met Council, Mr. Licht again said, is looking for large pieces of
land that are not yet divided.
Rainville asked what is the next step? Mr. Licht said that he and
Shane will talk to Met Council Staff again. He feels that they will
ask Met Council to tell us what they want rather than guess and see
if we get a clear cut answer.
City of Nowthen
Planning & Zoning Meeting Feb. 24, 2009 Page 3
Mr. Licht said the Metropolitan Council is created by the State,
is the city and has the authority to review and approve the cities
comp plan and require that it be consistent with their plan for the
region.
Mr. Licht reminded the P & Z commission that Lake Elmo had tried to
fight Met Council and not give any land and it went all the way to
the Supreme Court and they lost.
Question asked if Mr. Licht should go thru his memorandum he had
handed out to the P & Z for tonight?
Mr. Licht said he would certainly go through it, if the commission
wanted to.
Mahutga said when he was going thru Mr. Licht’s memo, he noticed
about it mentioning to promote clustering. Mr. Licht said that was
actually written into the 1995 Comp Plan and the way he tried to
update this portion was to say that the city may want to consider it
for the future. That being, either for the area that has to be set
aside for sewer as an alternative so that you can take what is
limited at rural development pattern at 1 per 10 perhaps increasing
the density to give them the equivalent of 1 per 5 provided they
cluster houses in one corner and set aside parcels for future
development or the rural alternative where you are trying to set
aside the green ways or open space within a development as an amenity
for the home owners in that area as well as the community as a whole.
Scheffler said when going thru this info there was emphasis on the
rural characteristics. But he felt the community, when meeting, were
angry that they had to comply with this framework and their major
concerns was their property values. Mr. Licht said yes rural is the
item that Nowthen wants and is important to them and he said he
wanted to make that a known fact to Met Council even though we know
what they are looking for.
Rainville asked about the concern of the West side and if there would
be more time to review – what will happen to the deadline date? Mr.
Licht said that the deadline should stay the same. If reaction is
negative, then that will be put in the document.
Kern questioned if on the environmental issue of ground water
contamination and if ground water preservation is going to be added?
Mr. Licht said that Shane Nelson will address this (storm water and
water resources), and says yes both contamination and preservation is
good to have documented. Kern said yes, especially under high
density conditions.
Mr. Licht asked if the Planning & Zoning Commission would like him to
go thru the Draft Part 1 of the Comprehensive Plan? Consensus was
that yes they would like him to do this. Mr. Licht briefly went
through all sections which included the following:
City of Nowthen
Planning & Zoning Meeting Feb. 24, 2009 Page 4
Natural Environment
Land Use
Transportation
Community Facilities
Administration
Goals & Policies of each of the above:
Community Planning Principles
Pilon asked how many plans will be submitted? Mr. Licht said along
with the Comprehensive Plan there are the smaller system plans of the Transportation Plan, Water Resources Plan and Storm Water Management Plan. Previously these had been done by the County, but now since we are a city they need to be done by Nowthen.
Kern asked how does the Water Shed Plan fit in with the Water Resources Plan. Mr. Licht said the Water Resources Plan will be reviewed by the Water Shed District.
Mr. Licht said there have been cities that say they can’t bring in
houses if they can’t provide water. Met Council has to work with DNR,
MPCA and other effective agencies to reach an agreement as to how
we’re going to provide water on a regional basis.
Mahutga asked who pays for the sewer line when it goes by the farmers
field? Mr. Licht says it’s the city’s decision of who pays for the
sewer. If the developer is requesting the sewer to extend up into
that area, then the city can say the developer will pay for the whole
cost of the sewer line, and it does not need to be assessed to other
property owners.
Pilon asked if he had access to our Oak Savannahs or any other
protected trees should be researched in this East area also. Mr.
Licht said that he and Shane Nelson would check into this issue next.
Mr. Licht said Met Council has said define what is important to the
community in terms of Nowthen’s natural resources that is wanted to
protect, which would certainly include the protected trees. Mahutga
commented protect the farmland too. Mr. Licht said they would point
out that ag preservation works great for urban reserve especially the
larger tracts of land.
Mr. Licht will update us at the next March 24th, 2009 meeting and we
will also review the 2nd half of the Draft 2009 Comprehensive Plan
Update.
3. Continued Discussion – Ordinance #3 Section 417 – Development
Standards for Commercial or Light Manufacturing Uses. Request to
check out the word spelling of principle – used in Item #4 which
states: All commercial or light manufacturing principle structures
shall have a minimum of 2,000 square feet enclosed main floor area.
It was thought that it should be spelled principal. Mahutga will
check the spelling for next meeting in March.
City of Nowthen
Planning & Zoning Meeting Feb. 24, 2009 Page 5
There was discussion on Section 417, Item number 11. Scheffler asked
if we had talked about a maximum height for fencing? Building Official Olson said no. He said once the fence is over 6 feet the resident has to get a permit because anchorage and footings have to be designed. Pilon asked what if a business sells and the new owner might want a different size fence. Mahutga replied wouldn’t, at that time, the code come into effect? Rainville inquired if the Architectural Review Committee shouldn’t review these? Building Official Olson said a sentence should be added and that to say fences over 6 feet high require a building permit and approval by Architectural Review Committee. Rainville asked if maybe the Architectural Review Committee shouldn’t review all fences? Building Official Olson said we don’t know when residents are putting them in to do that.
Pilon asked if the Architectural Review Committee recommends to the Council? Building Official Olson said no they actually aide him and the builder.
Kern questioned if the Architectural Review Committee have standards to go by? Building Official Olson said they go according to our Ordinances.
Mahutga asked if there were different codes for main street fronts of buildings comparing to businesses in the back areas of the commercial district? Building Official Olson said no we don’t have any different codes now. He said if we do that we would need to break down into different categories and that will take a lot of time in doing. Our main objective is to stay away from pole barn looks in the commercial districts. If the commercial building is on a corner it affects 2 sides of the building. The point was brought up that going along 22, for example, you notice the sides of the bank more than the front of the bank.
Kern asked if there is the option to buffer instead of dressing up side of building? Building Official Olson said we do encourage buffering, the problem might be if there is space to do it.