ACN 110 028 825
T: 1800 AUSCRIPT (1800 287 274)
E:
W: www.auscript.com.au
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N H-762189
THE HONOURABLE M. WHITE AO, Commissioner
MR M. GOODA, Commissioner
IN THE MATTER OF A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO
THE CHILD PROTECTION AND YOUTH DETENTION
SYSTEMS OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY
DARWIN
10.15 AM, FRIDAY, 31 MARCH 2017
Continued from 30.3.17
DAY 26
MR P.J. CALLAGHAN SC appears with MR P. MORRISSEY SC, MR T. McAVOY SC, MR B. DIGHTON, MS V. BOSNJAK, MR T. GOODWIN and MS S. McGEE as Counsel Assisting
MS S. BROWNHILL appears with MR G. O’MAHONEY and MR C. JACOBI for the Northern Territory of Australia
MR P. O’BRIEN appears with MS C. GOODHAND and MR D. INDEVAR for Dylan Voller
MR P. BOULTON appears with DR P. DWYER for North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency
MS F. GRAHAM appears for the Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service
MR J. TIPPETT QC appears for Ken Middlebrook
MR S. O’CONNELL appears for AN and others
.ROYAL COMMISSION 31.3.17 P-2397
©Commonwealth of Australia
CLOSED SESSION ENSUED
[REDACTED INFORMATION]
PUBLIC SESSION RESUMED
RESUMED [10.15 am]
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Commissioner Gooda and I would like to take this opportunity to note, as we sit for the last day of our three week session, that we provided our interim report to the Governor-General yesterday. Now, until it is tabled in the Parliament, it is not available for distribution, but as soon as that occurs, it will go onto our website and hard copies will be available for the legal representatives of the parties in the Commission as well, of course, for others.
What the Commission has heard over the last eight months, and particularly over the last three weeks in this courtroom and in Alice Springs is that the system of youth detention in the Northern Territory has failed and we think is still failing. At every level we have seen that a detention system that focuses on punitive, not rehabilitative, measures fails our young people. It fails those who work in those systems and it fails the people of the Northern Territory who are entitled to live in safer communities.
For a system to work, children and young people in detention must be given every opportunity to get their lives on track and to re-enter the community less likely to reoffend. As we are aware, it has taken years to reach this point. There is no quick fix solution and the Commission has to be considered in its approach to effect sustainable and long-term change.
COMMISSIONER GOODA: We do not make specific recommendations in the interim report because we still need to hear from political leaders, those in charge at the time and progress our inquiries into the care and protection system. Only then we will be in a position to make well-considered, fair and meaningful recommendations. We have cast a net far and wide to look at what is working and what could work in the circumstances of the Northern Territory, particularly with the over-representation of Aboriginal youths in the systems and the challenges that brings.
In the coming months we will shift our focus onto the care and protection system. This is a critical part of our work and evidence before the Commission shows that children and young people in out-of-home care are more likely to enter the youth detention system. Those systems are inextricably linked. But we will not lose focus
.ROYAL COMMISSION 31.3.17 P-2398
©Commonwealth of Australia
on the fact that every child of the Northern Territory deserves a real opportunity to reach their potential and that the Northern Territory people deserve a safer community.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Now, we need to reconstitute the court and into closed court, I think, Mr Dighton, don’t we?
MR DIGHTON: That’s right, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: I’m afraid we will have to go out again and we will resume when that occurs. I’m told it will take about five minutes or more.
ADJOURNED [10.19 am]
CLOSED SESSION ENSUED
[REDACTED INFORMATION]
PUBLIC SESSION RESUMED
RESUMED [2.08 pm]
MR McAVOY: Good afternoon, Commissioners. We have in court this afternoon Mr Marius Puruntatameri and he’s the last witness for these sittings. I call Mr Puruntatameri to the witness box.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Mr Puruntatameri, I will administer the oath for you
<MARIUS PURUNTATAMERI, SWORN [2.09 pm]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR McAVOY
Thank you. Would you kindly be seated now.
MR McAVOY: Mr Puruntatameri, do you mind if I call you Marius?No. Not at all.
.ROYAL COMMISSION 31.3.17 P-2399 M. PURUNTATAMERI XN
©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY
Okay. Thank you. Marius, on the screen in front of you in a second will appear your statement. Do you recognise that statement?I do.
And your signature down the bottom?Yes.
And that’s a statement that you have made for this Royal Commission?Yes.
And the contents of that statement are true and correct, to the best of your knowledge?Yes.
Commissioners, I tender the statement of Mr Puruntatameri dated 15 February 2017.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: That’s exhibit 256.
EXHIBIT #256 STATEMENT OF MARIUS PURUNTATAMERI DATED 15/02/2017
MR McAVOY: Thank you, Commissioners.
Marius, I would ask you just to tell the Commissioners briefly about your history working in the elders visiting program, please?Yes. The elders visiting program initially started in 2005. It was an initiative with a joint partnership with the then Yilli Rreung Regional Council, when ATSIC – and I think Commissioner Gooda you had something to do with that.
COMMISSIONER GOODA: I did.
THE WITNESS: The Yilli Rreung Regional Council and also the Correctional Service. So there was a joint partnership to start the elders visiting program in 2005. It started with four communities and my community on the Tiwi Islands, and I was one of them, involving the Tiwi Islands. Twelve years on, now, it has 10 communities. It’s involved in that. So I have been with the program for 12 years now to date. We visit the main prison, talk to the people there and also the – we visited the juvenile detention centre over these 12 years.
MR McAVOY: Thank you. When you say the main prison, are you talking about the adult prison?That’s correct, the adult prison, both the old adult prison and now the new one at Holtze.
Yes. Now, the program that you have been involved in is called the Elders Visiting Program. Just in your own words, can you describe what the role of an elder is in your community?Well, the role of an elder in our community, obviously is to keep peace, order, goodwill in – in our communities. Of course, that doesn’t always happen and that’s why elders in our community are – play an important part in trying to keep our community as positive as we can but also to facilitate any help with the
.ROYAL COMMISSION 31.3.17 P-2400 M. PURUNTATAMERI XN
©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY
programs, facilitate any conflict resolution in communities, and the responsibilities in trying to help other government departments that have programs such as drug and alcohol that are run in most of our communities in the Top End, CatholicCare, Red Cross and other organisations. So they play an important role. As well as – the most important thing that elders do is ensure that our young people are going through the proper ceremonies when they are young and come out as a mature adult. So the elders really have that responsibility to a wide – in a wider perspective to help not only in our cultural ways but in the western – western ways as well.
And it’s important that you’re able to help people in cultural ways and your own traditional law for the Tiwi Islands and in western law?It’s absolutely imperative that we do that to – because of obviously of the changes in our society. We have to also work in two worlds, the western world and also our world. It is very, very important to convey that to our younger people that may be struggling in our communities.
And in your world and in your culture, how important is it for young people to respect their elders?Look, it’s – it’s absolutely important that our young people respect elders in our communities because we know for a fact that that doesn’t happen now because of the influences – outside influences that we – that has happened in our communities over time, but I think I – it’s safe to say that elders in their communities have ways how to overcome these things and they do it very, very – in an honourable way to deal with their problems in relation to younger people in our communities that are involved in other offences.
And just as the young people should respect the elders, the elders have some responsibilities for the young people?They – the – look, the elders have always have a big – look, I should say a huge responsibility, particularly in guiding our youths to develop – to be developed the way we would like them to be developed. Obviously that doesn’t always happen but I can say that elders do have that responsibility to develop our young people and – and that is happening now in everywhere that I know with all the elders that have been involved in the Elder’s Visiting Program. It’s a big talk on getting up our mentoring our younger people to be – to become better people and role models for their communities.
And as a male elder, is there a different relationship that you have between the young men and the young women?Absolutely. We – the men always deal with men and we – we have older ladies that deal with the younger ladies. That has always been in our culture. We do not do things that is inappropriate by talking to, for example, a male talking to another female individually, that’s classed as inappropriate because of cultural reasons. So yes, we do – the men deal with the younger men, and likewise the older women deal with the younger women, ladies.
Thank you.
COMMISSIONER WHITE: Can I just ask a question here, Mr Puruntatameri, that when you’re visiting the prisons, and we’ll talk about the juvenile prison here, if
.ROYAL COMMISSION 31.3.17 P-2401 M. PURUNTATAMERI XN
©Commonwealth of Australia MR McAVOY
there were a young lady from the Tiwi Islands but you didn’t have a Tiwi Island lady with you, you would speak to her though?Yes. Yes. I would. And yes, I have done that. Obviously every time I have been to the prison it was – it wasn’t only me. There’s another elder. But we now have – we have recently just involved another female, perhaps another two female elders, but I have in the past when there was no elder Tiwi women or woman, I have talked to them. But because we’re one people, Tiwi people, there’s only one language speaking nation on the two islands. We have overcome the difficulties that other communities have in the mainland because there are so many tribes and clans living in one community such as Port Keates, Maningrida and places in Arnhem land so we, the Tiwi people, have one language; we’re one people. So we understand each other, so we don’t have that problem, it’s not difficult at all. We can speak to a female as long as they’re, you know, with other females.
Yes?That’s okay.
Thank you.
MR McAVOY: And the point is that you shouldn’t speak to them alone on your own; is that right? If you’re having to speak to a young woman, you should have somebody else there with you?Yes. And I – I should clarify that. When we’re – when we’re talking to – in communities, you can’t speak to them alone. But the circumstances that when they’re in prison is a different thing. We can talk to them alone but as Tiwi people, and I’m sure other elders in the program have – have done it as well. So they have overcome that thing, but certainly in our communities we could not do that. What we could – like, in prison, we’re able to do that.
Thank you. I just want to talk to you about the importance of law for young men. How important is it for young men from your community to go through men’s law?That is absolutely very important that they go through our law, even though it – it is obviously not as strong as it used to be 20 years ago – it is still recognised as going through the law. And it’s very important. It is that – in other communities we don’t have the initiation and circumcision ceremony like they do in other communities in our mainland. That makes us unique, but we do have our ceremony where they are initiated. It’s called a Calarma Ceremony and they go through that. They don’t go through it as young as they used to be, obviously because of changes and influences, but after they finish that, the – the expectations and the responsibilities and the role changes for that person because he’s now recognised as an older person, adult after going through the initiation ceremony.
And what age, generally speaking, do boys go through the law on Tiwi?In Tiwi they used to go through when they are – when they were quite young, around about 15, 16 is when they’re recognised as adults and were initiated. Now, obviously, it’s much older because of the changes in society. But I know in Arnhem land and other places that they go – they have ceremonies when they are quite younger, 13 – as young as 13. So that still happens now, not quite as like that in our Tiwi society.