DE SUN DO MOVE CRITIQUE by Herb Evans
(An Examination of 50 Selected Passages by Jack Mooreman)
John Jasper, the converted Negro slave turned preacher, preached a famous sermon called “De Sun Do move.” Einstein claimed that it did not matter whether one says that the sun moves or the earth moves, since it is relative, so we have no problem taking John Jasper’s observation or those involved in the battle on it. There are a company of KJO believers as well as a company of non-KJO folks who believe in geocentricity, which insists that the earth is stationary, unmovable, and does not rotate or spin and that the sun revolves around the earth. Geocentrists attempt to back up their many scientific claims with Bible proof texts. For the most part, their verses are metaphorical and can be made to prove either argument. The enormity of the universe is great. Still, the enormity of God is greater (Omnipresent) in that the heavens (all three) are but a span of God’s hand. – Herb Evans
Genesis 28:11-13
Gen 28:11And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Isa 66:1: . . . heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool . . .
Mooreman: The ladder (a type of Christ, John 1:51) connects heaven to earth. As with Isaiah 66:1, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool, the earth is stationary with reference to the throne of God. There is no thought here of a rotating and revolving earth. The earth is not moving beneath the ladder. This is also one of the Bibles ascending and descending passages. See at Ephesians 4:8-10 for a list of seventeen of these passages. They show that there is a direct rather than a circuitous link between the earth and the Throne of God in Heaven and as such demonstrate geocentricity.
Evans: The “sun was set” where; if the sun continually moves around the earth. Does it ever physically set (28:11)? Since there are three heavens, which one is meant here (28:12)? Notice God’s metaphors for His ladder, heavenly throne, and earthly footstool make suspect those who take advantage by making an argument for geocentricity by using the nuances of language. In regard to the direct link of the ladder, which part of the earth is God’s footstool? And which part of heaven is God’s throne? Better watch out that the Bible’s ladder does not hit the revolving universe in between earth and heaven.
Joshua 10:12-14
Joshua 10:12 – 14: Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Job 9:6, 7: Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
Hab 3:11:The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went . . .
Mooreman: In today's cosmology, the sun is stationary with reference to the earth and the moon is in motion, but here both are said to be moving, and both are made to stand still. Therefore the statement that the moon stayed is correct, but that the sun stood still is incorrect. How can it stand still if it is not moving? How can there be truth and false hood in two immediately parallel statements? Further, as heliocentrism requires that the earth would have to cease its rotational movement; it is to be noted that nothing in this account is said of the earth at all.
Every statement concerns the movement of the sun and moon. For the earth to suddenly or even gradually stop its rotation, a further miracle would be required to prevent it being overwhelmed by catastrophe. Many believe that for convenience, as men did not then know that the earth rotated, the Holy Spirit is presenting this miracle in the language of appearance rather than actuality.
The Bible says the sun stood still, but actually "it was the earth that stood still". This would set a serious precedent: i.e. that the Bible from time to time presents things only as they appear to be, not as they really are. James Hanson notes that even if it were the earth rather than the sun that stood still, this would still not solve the problem this passage presents for heliocentricity.
The Bible states that the sun and moon stood still, that is, they did not move. If, however, the earth stopped rotating, or if it flipped its axis; and if Copernicus were correct, then there is still the residual motion of earth about the sun, which would cause the sun to move through twice its diameter during Joshua's long day.
Mooreman Continued:Even worse is the case for the moon, for stopping the earth in no way stops the moon's independent motion about the earth, which, in one day, amounts to 13 degrees or a movement of about 26 lunar diameters. (The Bible and Geocentricity, p.47). The event here is to be taken in the same literal manner as Christ walking on the water, the plagues of Egypt, the crossing of the Red Sea and countless other miracles. As Matthew Henry comments: "at the word of Joshua, the sun stopped immediately".
EVANS: The geocentric argument is that the sun stood still with the implication that it was the sun that moves rather than the earth moving on its axis. Let us examine the scriptures pertaining to the supposed moving of the sun and moon in Joshua and Isaiah: Obviously, this was a miracle, but what kind is not apparent. The geocentrists will say that the Sun actually stopped and later even reversed its orbit around the earth; the heliocentric will say that the earth stopped rotating. God can do either one, without the help of scientific explanation or the chance of catastrophe.” Still, these verses do not tell us whether the sun was moving and stopped or whether the earth was rotating and stopped. In regard to the miracle in Joshua and Isaiah, it could have happened by the earth stopping its rotation or it could have happened by the sun actually stopping. Nevertheless, being a miracle, it could have happened as a result of the whole universe stopping. Still, this is the record which tells us what happened per the observation of the men who saw it.
1. The Sun stood still.
2. The Sun did so in the midst of heaven or sky.
3. The moon stayed or stood still as well.
4. The phenomena lasted for a whole day.
5. The sun was said to “not go down” during that time.
6. Also, the sun dial went forward and backward 10 degrees (40 minutes)
We cannot see anything but this phenomena happening in the middle of the sky from man’s view and perspective, since it is men that are being advantaged and/or disadvantaged by this occurrence. Is the midst of heaven the midst of the sky or is the midst of heaven 93 million miles or farther with heaven’s end being 186 million miles away? It is very important to define one’s terms in discussion like this, especially if you want to inject science into the argument.
Judges 5:20, 31
Judges 5:20: They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Judges 5:31: So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might.
Psa 19:4 – 6: Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth isfrom the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Mooreman: Mesillah (courses) is usually translated "highway", i.e. highways in OT Israel, but it is never said that the earth itself is on a mesillah. Compare the sun's circuit (Psalm 19:6). As a strong man to run a race, Psalm 19:5. We do not read in Scripture of the going forth of the earth.
EVANS: The sun and all the heavenly bodies have courses and circuits but what those courses and circuits are is another matter. Because the Bible says something about one thing does not demand that it be said of another, unless you make your own rules? Nevertheless, there is said to be an ordinance of the earth that Mooreman missed in Jeremiah 33:25. What are heaven and its ends here? The horizons? What does the nothing that is hid from its heat mean?
1 Samuel 2:8
I Samuel 2:8: …for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
Mooreman: A rotating, revolving earth set upon pillars is a contradiction. These pillars find further expression in Hebrews 1:3…upholding all things by the word of his power.
EVANS: How so except it have an axis? What exactly and specifically are those pillars or columns? If heaven has pillars as well as earth, does that mean that heaven does not move as well? Where are the ends of the earth? At the horizons? How so if the earth turns as clay to the seal (design instrument)? Brother Mooreman never saw my grandson spin a basketball on his index finger. Did he ever see a gyroscope?
Job 26:11: The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
Job 38:13, 14: That it might take holdof the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clayto the seal . . .
II Kings 20:9-11
II Kings 20:9-11: And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD . . . shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz. The sun dial went backward and forward 10 degrees [40 minutes.]
Mooreman: Was this action of the shadow caused by the earth reversing its rotation, or by the sun reversing its revolution around a stationary earth? Isaiah 38:8 says it was the sun that returned. "Whether this retrograde motion of the sun was gradual or per salutm - suddenly - whether it went back at the same pace that it used to go forward, which would make the day ten hours longer than usual - or whether it darted back on a sudden, and, after continuing a little while, was restored again to its usual place, so that no change was made in the state of the heavenly bodies (as the learned bishop Patrick thinks) - we are not told." Matthew Henry.
EVANS: Exactly; we are not told how it happened! Stalemate! Obviously, if the earth could rotate counterclockwise, it is no harder to rotate clockwise. At the speed the sun is implied to travel, it seems to be much harder. It is a miracle either way, whether the sun stops or the earth stops. Can you imagine the cosmic speed of the sun as it revolves around the earth? One need only measure the sun’s radius at 93,000 miles to get the circumference of its supposed circuit around the earth and divide by 24 hours to get the MPH. Our guess is that would be a third the speed of light at 186,000 miles per second or 667,800,000 MPH. The same mathematical formula may be done with the closest star to get its orbital circumference being way beyond the speed of light in one 24 hour day.
I Chronicles 16:30, 31
1 Chron. 16: 30. 31: Fear before him, all the earth: the world alsoshallbe stable, that it be not moved. Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice:
Judges 5:20: . . . they fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Job 9:6 – 8: Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Psa 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shallbe establishedthat it shall not bemoved . . .
Psa 99:1:The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
Isa 13:13: Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shallremove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isa 24:19, 20: The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Jer 33:25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven AND EARTH . . .
Rev 20:11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Mooreman: The earth has a place, not a path. Not courses, Judges 5:20. Not a circuit, Psalm 19:6. Not a going forth, Judges 5:39 (There is no Judge 5:39; perhaps Psalm 19:6 is meant.). The earth is moved from her place only in times of judgment. The command in verse 7 is specifically directed to the sun, nothing is said of God commanding the earth in its rotational movement. It is only in times of judgment, especially that of the last days, that the earth is said to move (Job 9:6; Psalm 99:1; Isaiah 13:13; 24:19, 20; Revelation 20:11). At all other times it is stable and not moved. Compare Psalm 96:10. Job 9:6-8
EVANS: Let us examine this doctrine by innuendo and inference and suggestion. While we can agree that the earth has a place and shall be shaken out of that place (Job 9:6 - 8), we cannot agree that the earth does not have a path. We also can agree that the Lord can command the sun to do what the Lord wants. The mechanics of those events are not mentioned. Psalm 96:10 seems to favor our view in that it must not yet be established while still moving for it to be said that it SHALL be established and it SHALL not be moved exceedingly (Isaiah 24:19, 20) and even removed out of HER place in the future (Isaiah 13:13). To be fled AWAY (Revelation 20:11) suggests a big, big, move. We have no problem with the sun, moon, planetsAND stars having circuits as well as the earth; we do have a problem with these circuits not being biblically defined as to what they are. Still we are not about to accept the extra scriptural scientific theories above the Bible’s truth.
EVANS Continued:We have a problem with the circuits of the sun and stars demanding that the earth have no circuits as opposed to the other planets. We do not understand the point which Mooreman makes about the starts fighting in Judges 5:20. While we can sympathize with some catastrophic consequences by the moving of the earth and heaven as they are fled away in the future, but that does not have to necessarily be the case. Still, we do not see the future end time events as very significant when compared to today’s observations or to the Old Testament observations.
Jer 33:25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven AND EARTH . . .
Job 22:14 and the Circuit of Heaven
Job 22:14: Thick clouds are a covering to him, and that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
Jer 33:25: Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven AND EARTH . . .
Mooreman: The Hebrew word chug is translated "circuit", "circle" and "compass". The sun (Psalm 19:6), and the heavens have a circuit (both atmospheric and celestial) in which they move around the earth. Compare the stars in their courses, Judges 5:20. We do not read of the earth having a circuit.
EVANS: One must contend thatthe clouds covering HIM and Him walking the circuit of heaven are highly poetic and metaphoric. As we said, we do not deny that the sun, the moon, the planets as having circuits, ordinances, or circular orbits. Beyond that, we await the biblical proof of what those circuits are. When something is said about one thing that does not demand that it is to be said of another. Nevertheless, what about what is said about the ordinance or circuit of the EARTH?