Date Posted: Mar/15/2001 12:14 PM
Posted By: McPherson
Rank: Transporter Driver
Doug OR ANYONE,
Got a quick question.. When you go to a new track like say.. Charlotte.. Or any new one. What do you do first?
What is your process you go through. What is the first thing you change? How do you evaluate? What do you look
for? What is your favorite thing to tweek? what is the thing you leave alone? How many laps are a good run for tire
temps and testing if a setup change has worked or not worked. When you change something what do you look for to
see if it helps. I understand there is like 1,000,000,000,000 variables but generally what is it you do.
I have read the Setup guide and followed some of that.. but honestly the proceedure is not there. Do you use the fast
setups and go from there. What is the best way to increase speed on tracks. Gears or Aero? handling? Ride height?
air pressure?
I want to build my own set ups.. Love yours but its not the same know what I mean. I am a Slammer.. Hard on the
breaks and turn LEFT.. Its a bit different in N4 and this whole patients thing is hard getting used to.
Thanks.
Email me if you have a chance!! or anyone..
Date Posted: Mar/15/2001 1:49 PM
Posted By: Doug Arnao
Rank: Transporter Driver
McPherson,
>>Got a quick question.. When you go to a new track like say.. Charlotte.. Or any new one. What do you do
first?<<
I can't answer this. There is so much feel involved and years of doing this that it's hard to put into words from
memory. I do start with the fast setup and usually tweak that. Other good idea is to start with a setup from a similar
track. Like Charlotte and Texas are very similar. I even used my Rockingham setup as a base for my Darlington
setup.
It's very important that the driver can translate whats happening to the handling. Very, Very, important to be able to
seperate the different phases of the corner and the underlying attitude the car has.
A car thats inconsistent thru the different phases is transitional adjustments like trackbar, shocks, and diagonal
spring changes.
A car thats tight or loose thru an entire corner is swaybar, total front/rear spring stiffness, or weight.
Never confuse the above issues by playing with camber and pressures. Set them so the temps are 10-15 degrees
hot on inside of RF, 5 degrees hot on outside of LF. Rears: just set camber at: RR -1.8 and LR at +1.8 and forget
them. Set pressures so middle is the average of the two outers.Revisit these as you change other stuff, but only to
"re-zero" them to where they should be. So I would say this would be "first".
Judging by what you said of your driving style, setup analysis becomes next to impossible - especially the
transitional stuff. You pretty much obliterate the entrance and exit phase of the corner with a style like that. Won't
work on a real car, won't work here. It would be-hoove you to learn patience and be smooth. One trick is to drive the
tracks with no brakes. Just do as long a lift as necessary to slow down for the corner and squeeze the throttle to
balance at the entrance, holding that balance with throttle and steering thru to the exit. Actually my fastest laps at
The Rock and Darlington are with no brakes. Bristol can even be driven pretty quickly with no brakes if you lift just
past halfway on the straights. Force yourself to do this for one whole hour.............
Next track I do I'll try to jot down my thoughts and steps as I develop the thing from the get go.
One major thing is to find out if the track likes soft or stiff springs......when in doubt go soft.
--Doug
Date Posted: Mar/15/2001 3:51 PM
Posted By: Bob Stanley
Rank: Tire Changer
I also talk about this some in the drivers guide but to add to what Doug said;
First thing I did was to learn the track with the fast setup. Charlotte is a great example because turns 1 & 2 are really
kind of strange with it's double apex which at first was difficult for me to get hold of. There are 3 things that I think are
key that I've included in the drivers guide; 1st is a discertation on learning what the car (fast) is capable of. To do that
you just have to run laps until you get close to the times that are listed in the guide for the fast setup at each track.
2nd) You've got to be consistant with those times and lastly, through that process, you'll start to get a feel for what
changes you want to make to the car. You have to have clear goals in mind for what you want to change and there is
no way to have any clear goals in mind unless you've learned to drive the track with the fast setup with changes only
to linearity and wheel lock to suit your wheel/pedals or joystick. This could literally take 100's of laps before you ever
make a chassis adjustment. Take Doug's advice for driving style and learn to enter the corners very smoothly. Just
as you drive by sepearting the corner into 3 sections; entry, middle, and exit so should you setup the car. Start by
dialing in entry. If you're driving style and or setup prevents you from making a good entry, you're hosed. From there
work towards the middle and finally the exit. At most tracks you'll have to make a compromise because turns 1&2
are usually different from 3&4. I'd be willing to bet $100.00 that when new drivers download a setup that helps them
be a little faster they start to think everything is all about setups when in reality, they haven't got the most out of the
fast setup yet because the actual 'driving' is more important than the setup. In my most humble opinion, I think N4
exempliefies the ole cliche' that a great driver can win in a bad car but a bad driver can't even come close in a great
car. Now a great driver in a great setup is what we all strive to be but the 'process' requires you to become a great
driver before you can take full advantage of a great setup. Sorry to preach but you gave me a good oppertunity to
emphasize that driving skill is way more important than chassis setups.
If you haven't done so already, please refer to the Driving Guide for more help
Once you have all that figured out, Rodney's setup guide will be that much more help.
Regards,
Bob
-------------------------
Bob Stanley
Co-Founder
#34 LightSpeed! MotorSports
*********THIS IS WHERE WE ACTUALLY SET THE CAR UP*********
The content below is a thread from Team-Lightspeed forums. Print document.
Thread Title: Doug/Bob - Working Bristol
Date Posted: Mar/17/2001 12:19 AM
Posted By: McPherson
Rank: Transporter Driver
K.. You guys told me to read all that stuff and drive laps at a track with no breaks. I think I figured a bit of it out. Now.
Here is a question for ya.
I went to Bristol Day, 70d, no wind, ran 66 laps with no brakes. Top strait speed was 125 before shutting it down to
make a 103-108 entry into the corner. Anything over that would push me way up. With an entry at 103-108 I could
stick to the yellow at about 95 mph through the corner. I could start on the throttle just past the apex. Only lightly. If I
tried 1/2 to full throttle I would push to the wall. My entries are early and low and my exits are low as well.
Speed was average 17.1-17.3 consistantly. After about 50 we Yellowed the RF and started pushing even more. And
getting a bit squirly on exit.
Temps.. LF 169 155 167
RF 216 207 207
Lr 161 151 155
RR 169 158 162
So.. With this info what do you think you would do..
I think the corner speeds are too low.. The straights will increase some when I start breaking. but not by much. I
want a faster less of a push from the hole in turn 2 and 4. But I wanna stay low. What ya got? What do you
recommend. Oh.. one last thing .. the front locks up all the time when you do wanna break.
Date Posted: Mar/17/2001 9:31 AM
Posted By: Doug Arnao
Rank: Transporter Driver
OK, add 3 pounds of air to the RF and 4lbs of air to ALL the others. this will pump the center of the tire up allowing
that part of the tire to contact the road surface properly. right now its not doing it's fair share indicated by averaging
the two outers, which should then equal the center. EG: RR the the inner/outer add up to:
169+162/2=165.5...........so you are low in pressure here bcause it's at 151 in your example. All your tires show the
same problem.
Next add .25 degrees *negative* camber to the RF because the inner temp is only 10 degrees hot and it should be
15 hot. Next add .50 degrees *positive* camber to the LF to heat up the outside of the tire more. Both these are done to
maximaize CAMBER THRUST on the tires, which Papy models quite realisticly.
Drive that 10-20 laps to feel the difference - should push less and be a little more consistent.
After that, move the wedge all the way to -150. This will pull weight off the RF and LR and add it to the LF/RR. This
will cool down the RF and make it push even less and make that tire last longer. If the car get too loose for you ,
then move alittle weight forward until its comfortable again..........
For the brakes reduce the brake bias by about 5%.
Report back with results :-)
--Doug
Date Posted: Mar/17/2001 11:16 AM
Posted By: McPherson
Rank: Transporter Driver
Thanks.. on my way.
Date Posted: Mar/17/2001 12:16 PM
Posted By: McPherson
Rank: Transporter Driver
Alrighty then... Round 2 and 3..
Again Bristol, Daytime, 70d, No wind.. NO brakes. (Before wedge adjustment)
31 laps
Average 17.03x consistantly
Hot laps 16.5 laps 2,3,4 (But squeeling big entering corner)
Straight speeds went up before I had to let off 126
Entry way up 113-115
Apex about 97 consistantly (With out much squeel if any)
Car seemed much more stable and consistant. Nice exit "feel" I can roll on the throttle much earlier at or a bit before
apex. gentle roll on throttle and before I am out of the turn I have full throttle with NO push.
And you did all this with pressure and camber only.... amazing.
Tires
LF - 163 157 159
RF - 223 226 211
LR - 152 147 147
RR - 164 158 158
NOW with the -150 wedge adjustment
Straight speeds 128
Entry 116
Apex about 100
23 laps
Times 16.8-9 consistantly.. and there was one at 28.00... I, ah... spun. But followed that up with a 16.3. NO
BRAKES..
I seem to get in the corner faster, I am letting off gas later, exit of corner is completly tricky. Looped it once.
Definately more comfortable entering and through the corner. I need to practice the exit. To cure the exit what do you
recomend? reducing the wedge or putting more weight up front?
Tires
LF - 159 152 154
RF - 211 208 200
LR - 163 156 156
RR - 180 172 172
On tires... what when you average the O/I what is an allowable spread?
Date Posted: Mar/17/2001 2:26 PM
Posted By: Doug Arnao
Rank: Transporter Driver
>>>(Before wedge adjustment)
31 laps
Average 17.03x consistantly
Hot laps 16.5 laps 2,3,4 (But squeeling big entering corner)
Straight speeds went up before I had to let off 126
Entry way up 113-115
Apex about 97 consistantly (With out much squeel if any)
Car seemed much more stable and consistant. Nice exit "feel" I can roll on the throttle much earlier at or a bit before
apex. gentle roll on throttle
and before I am out of the turn I have full throttle with NO push.
And you did all this with pressure and camber only.... amazing.<<<
A car is a dumb device. It only sees two things: size of the tire contact patch, and the amount of weight on that
contact patch at any given slice of time in the corner. Period - thats it. All the fancy adjustments we make only
adjust do these two things. Before the wedge, we only attempted to optimize the contact patch and, of course, the
car responded to it :-)
With the wedge we attempt to more evenly distribute the weight on the tire contact patches - add to the tires that are
light and take it off the tires that are overloaded (the RF). Tire grip goes up when more weight is applied to it, but falls
near the top of the "curve". removing weight from the RF brings it back under the curve and adding weight to the LF
moves it higher up the curve. Net effect is more front grip, reducing understeer.
>>>Tires
LF - 163 157 159
RF - 223 226 211
LR - 152 147 147
RR - 164 158 158 <<<
LF needs more air 2 more pounds. RF is showing you are driving it harder and seems to need 2 less pounds
HOWEVER it's overheated relative to the others and I would rather see you reduce the temps on that tire (and that
will drop the center temp) than reduce pressure yet. The wedge will help solve that as we'll see. LR is close. RR
needs 2 more pounds.
<<
entering and through the corner. I need to practice the exit. To cure the exit what do you recomend? reducing the
wedge or putting more weight
up front? <<<<<
Ok this is the next to work on. Try dropping the RR spring 25 lbs and see if that helps. That will mostly affect power
on exit - also reducing RR compression on the shock 1 click.....same reasons. If that seems like a dead end, set
everything back and try dropping the right side trackbar .25" at a time.
Tires
LF - 159 152 154
RF - 211 208 200