Socrates Argues That Pleasantness Is Not the Same As Goodness

Socrates Argues That Pleasantness Is Not the Same as Goodness

(Plato, Gorgias 495D3-497A5)

Socrates: Callicles . . . claimed that pleasantness and goodness are the same . . . .

Callicles: Does Socrates . . . not agree . . .?

S. He does not agree, nor, I think, will Callicles when he looks into himself in the right way. For, tell me, don't you think that those whose lives are going well are in the opposite condition from those doing badly?

C. I do.

S. Then, since these conditions are opposite to each other, mustn't it be the same with them as with health and sickness? For, surely, one isn’t at the same time healthy and sick, nor does one at the same time get rid of health and sickness.

C. What do you mean?

S. Take whatever part of the body you like, and consider the matter regarding that part alone, as an example. Can’t someone have a sickness of the eyes called 'eye-inflammation'?

C. Sure.

S. Then he isn’t also at the same time healthy in these same eyes.

C. No way!

S. How, then, when he gets rid of the eye-inflammation? Does he then also get rid of health in his eyes, so that, in the end, he is rid of both?

C. Not at all!

S. No, indeed! For that would, I think, be absurd and illogical, wouldn't it be?

C. And how!

S. I think, rather, that it is at different times he gets these two, and also that it is at different times that he loses them?

C. And I do, too.

S. And, then, it goes similarly with strength and weakness?

C. Yes.

S. And with speed and slowness?

C. Sure thing!

S. And also with good things and life’s goodness and their opposites, bad things and misery – at different times one gets and gets rid of these?

C. In all ways, no doubt.

S. Then if we find things that one gets rid of and keeps at the same time, it's clear that these won't be the good and the bad. Do we agree on this? Consider very carefully before you reply.

C. But I wholly agree.

S. Consider, now, the things we agreed to earlier. Hunger, did you say, is pleasant or painful? I mean hunger itself.

C. I say it's painful, although I say that eating while hungry is pleasant.

S. I follow. But hunger itself is nevertheless painful, isn't it?

C. It is.

S. Then thirst, as well?

C. Intensely so.

S. Should I ask you yet more questions, or do you agree that all need and craving desire is painful?

C. I agree, so ask no more.

S. Then drinking when thirsty you say is pleasant?

C. I do.

S. And your 'when thirsty' means that this is while suffering?

C. Yes.

S. And the drinking is fulfillment of a need and is pleasure?

C. Yes.

S. So you say that one enjoys that drinking?

C. Very much!

S. When thirsty.

C. I say so.

S. When suffering?

C. Yes.

S. Then do you see what follows: that you say someone has enjoyment while suffering at the same time, when you say he drinks while thirsty? Or doesn't this happen at the same place and in the same respect (in the soul or body – for I think that makes no difference)? True or not?

C. True it is.

S. On the other hand, you say it's impossible for someone whose life is going well at the same time to do badly?

C. I sure do.

S. But you agreed that enjoyment while being pained is possible.

C. So it appears.

S. Then enjoying is not the same as one’s life going well, nor is being pained the same as doing badly; so that pleasantness is different from goodness.