Contents
1. Interview by D.O. of RFG in Barcelona------3
2. Email to a friend introducing Unitary Perception------38
3.Dialogue 11th July 2009------40
4. Dialogue 18th July 2009------51
5. Dialogue 25th July 2009------63
6. Dialogue 1st August 2009------75
7. Dialogue 8th August 2009------82
8. Dialogue5th August 2009------92
9. Dialogue 19th September 2009------103
10. Dialogue 26th September 2009------114
11. Dialogue 3rd October 2009------124
12. Dialogue 10th October 2009------127
CZCarles Zafra
RFG Dr. Rubén Feldman González
DO Domhnall O Brien
MPMariana Petric
1
______
Interview by D.O. to RFG in Barcelona
3rd July 2009
Domhnall O´Brien: Well, the date is the 3rd of July 2009 and we have with us Dr. Rubén Feldman González. Hello Rubén.
Rubén Feldman González: Hi.
DO: Well Rubén, could you tell me something about yourself, your qualifications, where you were born and how you found out about Unitary Perception?
RFG: Yes, I was born in Argentina, left the country during a severe social conflict in ’74 and started to study psychiatry in the United States. I’m a physician and I’m specialized in psychiatry, neurology, pediatrics and I have been quite lucky to have met very extraordinary people that allowed me to start Holokinetic Psychology, which is practically a breakthrough in Psychology and the beginning of Scientific Psychology, something that was of course needed.
That is essentially what I can tell you.
DO: So Unitary Perception itself… what is Unitary Perception?
RFG: Unitary Perception is a function of the brain that was apparently lost by mankind.
DO: So it’s not a technique.
RFG: It’s not a technique. It is a function of the brain like sleep or hunger and for reasons that are quite extraordinary themselves, it has been lost. Now it has been recovered by Jiddu Krishnamurti and he taught me Unitary Perception and it was probably the most important thing in my life in terms of what I learned. And immediately he introduced me to David Bohm, a very important physicist. And we had like a decade of dialogues, the three of us, to polish the language by which to start talking about Holokinetic Psychology and Unitary Perception.
It was for me very important to have those dialogues. Those dialogues with them changed my life for the better and we started a new psychology. That’s essentially what happened.
DO: Holokinetic Psychology.
RFG: Holokinetic Psychology, we started that.
DO: You said before that Unitary Perception is the most important thing in the human brain, in the human mind.
RFG: I believe so, yes.
DO: Some people would say that possibly, that possibly… how could I say it… it might almost look like arrogance…
RFG: Or exaggerated. It is not, because what happens is that once you understand what Unitary Perception is, everything becomes more relevant, everything in life and even the things that are considered to be the most important like God or religion, or whatever we consider to be important, are seen under a new light when you understand Unitary Perception. So I believe that even the understanding of religion can be improved tremendously when you understand Unitary Perception.
Relationship is improved by Unitary Perception. That’s why I say that it is the most important thing in life because everything in life is improved by it, everything.
DO: So it affects all areas of life?
RFG: It affects everything in life. And that’s why I say it is important. Not because it is a fragment of life that it is important but rather because it improves the totality of life.
DO: But then something comes to mind. Is this for particular people? Is it for a select few?
RFG: No.
DO: Is IQ important in the understanding of Unitary Perception? Can everyone understand this or are there people who are excluded from understanding it?
RFG: Ah no. It is a function of… Unitary Perception is a function of the brain. It is for everybody. It’s like sleep, it is for everybody and Unitary Perception is for everybody.
Now, what do we need to understand Unitary Perception? We need to have a good brain, as most people do and to have, yes, some IQ you know, basic IQ, you probable need an IQ of 120 or 130 to understand Unitary Perception but there are hidden variables, you know, that I’m beginning to see, rather to understand as hidden, in why, you know, in the understanding of this some people take it easily… Unitary Perception, and some people don’t. So what are the hidden variables? That I don’t know. But IQ is of course very important for understanding because we’re talking about a new level of abstraction in the understanding of the functioning of the brain. And the brain functions in three different ways and Unitary Perception is one of them.
So we have been used to believe that mind is thought and memory and self - and that is mind. But now we have to begin to talk about mind as something that is not only memory and thought and self. It’s something more than that. Mind is also Unitary Perception.
DO: Ok.
RFG: Yes.
DO: Just to talk a little bit about Unitary Perception. The person who is in Unitary Perception, does their relationship change or how does it affect them? Or how does it come out in someone’s life?
RFG: Well see when I learned Unitary Perception, which took me a while because I resisted it, as something that was not very important for some reason and when I did take it seriously, you know, it took me a while I insist, my life changed for good, everything. And so I probably discovered even love, you know. I am serious about this. And I began to gather… because of a growth in energy that Unitary Perception brings, I started to accumulate…
DO: Energy.
RFG: Titles, yes.
DO: Can you explain that?
RFG: Yes. Unitary Perception is a mutation in the brain that brings a tremendous amount of energy. And I didn’t know what to do with that.
DO: You’re talking about physical energy?
RFG: Yeah, physical, physical, nothing mystical, it’s true, true physical energy. And I didn’t know what to do with it, with the energy. And I started to accumulate…
DO: Qualifications.
RFG: Specialties, specialties in medicine like neurology and psychiatry and pediatrics, etc. And so that’s what I did. And when I met Bohm, David Bohm, fantastic fellow, he taught me everything for free you know, like a brother.
And he said “For how long are you going to be accumulating titles?” medical titles.
And I said “I don’t know what to do with my energy”.
And he said “Well you know, have you thought about doing something else?”
And then I started to teach Unitary Perception around the world. And it’s amazing what happens with Unitary Perception in terms of peace.
The first thing that I saw and that anyone who takes it seriously sees is the peace. Immediate peace.
Second, joy for nothing.
And third, after a couple of months or more, more energy, true physical energy, nothing esoteric. Real energy.
And life is highly improved by that, very highly improved. Relationships get better, more profound. You are… you start to get interested in everything. Like I started to study religion because when I started to teach Unitary Perception many people asked me questions about religion that I couldn’t answer and so I started to study religion. And I was surprised to see many things in religion that are mistranslated and I was amazed by that.
DO: So a different way.
RFG: Yes. And so I started to understand religion in a new way.
DO: In a new light.
RFG: Yes in a new way. And I even wrote about it and I think about writing about it and life becomes fascinating in all its aspects and everything is interesting for me now, everything. I don’t have the time of course to study everything but I would like to.
DO: Rubén just in relation to religion, broadly in relation to religion… You made a reference to Jiddu Krishnamurti. You met Jiddu Krishnamurti in 1975, did you say?
RFG: Yes.
DO: When you left Argentina, why did you seek out someone like Jiddu Krishnamurti? What reason to meet him did you have? You were saying that you wanted to meet him.
RFG: Yes.
DO: I know that Jiddu Krishnamurti, in his lifetime, throughout most of his life, he used the word “meditation”. Is Unitary Perception related to meditation? And why did Jiddu Krishnamurti use that word?
RFG: Yes.
DO: Rather than using something else or using “Unitary Perception’. Why “meditation”?
RFG: Yes. Let me answer in two parts. Well first I told a good friend in Argentina Mr. Prada “Listen” I said, the country was in shambles, tragedy. People were disappearing. “Prada” I said (in Argentina we address each other by the family name it’s like I would say O’ Brien to you instead of Domhnall) and I said “Prada” I said “ I don’t want to go to my medical office anymore. I am fed up with all the tragedy.”
He said “Why don’t you see JK, Jiddu Krishnamurti?”
“Who is that?”
He told me. And I go, I started to try to meet Jiddu Krishnamurti but he wasn’t offering any more interviews. He was already 85. But for some very lucky series of circumstances I met him and well, as I say, it changed my life and I never regret having done everything to meet him.
And meditation…
DO: Yes...
RFG: I immediately told him you know, the word “meditation’ the way he used it, meaning something beyond thought and beyond memory and beyond self, is not correct. Because “meditation”, the origin of the word is “to measure” “to moderate”, “to medicate”. So to medicate is thought. To measure is thought.
DO: We’re not talking about something measurable here.
RFG: Right and “to moderate” is thought. So I told him “You’re talking about something very important with a word that is incoherent and not related to what you’re talking about. I told him that. And he took it quite seriously. Because he listened to people you know. And as you will know, he talked about this in 1985, September, in BrockwoodPark. What is the name of the DVD? You probably remember the name of the DVDs .
View it here:
DO: Facing a World in Crises.
RFG: Facing a World in Crises. DVD 4. He talks about it and says “Meditation is a stupid word” . So he finally heard you know, he heard, he understood what I was trying to tell him. Because it’s true you know. “Meditation” is not a coherent, adequate word to talk about something which is not only thought and memory and self. It’s beyond that. And so he encouraged me to use the words “Unitary Perception” and which we consider to be adequate because of the epistemological implications of the words “Unitary Perception”.
DO: Well, while we’re still on the topic of Jiddu Krishnamurti, could you summarize, if that’s possible, his teachings?
RFG: Krishnamurti?
DO: Yes. Is it possible to summarize his teachings?
RFG: Yes well I’ll try to make it short. I say “Would you summarize your teachings”. I told him “Would you summarize your teaching?”
He goes “Well” he goes “attempt without effort to live with death in futureless silence”.
I go “What!?”
He goes “Attempt without effort to live with death in futureless silence”.
DO: Death?
RFG: With death.
And I go “Well why don’t we make a correction, why don’t we say: attempt without effort to live with peace in futureless silence”?
He goes “Dr. González doesn’t want to die”.
(laughter)
DO: Well again… the topic of Jiddu Krishnamurti. This is the last thing maybe. Many have interpreted what Jiddu Krishnamurti has said of being sort of a… how will I put it… that nothing can be done to be in Unitary Perception or as he would say, to be in meditation. The human being, the man or woman, all they can do is wait for this to happen, it’s not something that you do, it’s not something that a person does…
RFG: Ah yes.
DO: …There’s nothing to be done.
RFG: For technical reasons we probably need to go to the answer after a stop now. Yes.
-----
(Recording continues after break)
RFG: The question is very important. JK, Jiddu Krishnamurti speaks about meditation in a way that is maybe kind of misleading to those people that are not very much aware of what he’s talking about. And when he says mind that’s another thing that has to be clarified. He talks about the mind in a way that we have clarified as ABC. The mind is functioning in three different ways. Meaning, we can live the present, you know, this moment, in three different ways depending on what precinct of the mind we’re living in. Like for example we talk about mind as something that functions in three different ways, you know, ABC. So when JK speaks about mind he talks about mind as A without saying A and as B without saying B and mind as C without saying C. We clarify it and we say which kind of mind we’re talking about. It has to be clarified.
Of course JK, Jiddu Krishnamurti is a very relevant teacher and he has to be taken into account very seriously. But one of the things that your question alludes to is it’s very important to clarify what does it mean when JK talks about mind.
DO: In relation to the confusion about the word “mind” and what Jiddu Krishnamurti actually was saying, people say that possibly there’s nothing we can do to be in Unitary Perception.
RFG: Ah!
DO: Because you have to start from “That” as Jiddu Krishnamurti called it. People say that the mind is something that the brain cannot be in contact with.
RFG: The sacred.
DO: The sacred, the sacred, exactly.
RFG: Now. Of course. See this is a very… This is a very important thing. We can do nothing to be in the sacred. It has to come. If you are in peace, you know, it comes. But we can do nothing for the sacred to come. And that is something very important that Jiddu Krishnamurti talks about.
But he spoke for more than eighty years.
DO: Right.
RFG: More than eighty years. He started to talk when he was twelve. (laughing)
So what was he talking about? If we have to do nothing then what was he talking about for so long? He’s talking about B, Unitary Perception, which he called meditation, wrongly. At the end I insist that he clarified that meditation is a stupid word. In his own words.
So it’s very important that we understand that there’s nothing that we can do for A, the sacred. But it’s very important that we do B.
DO: Ok.
RFG: And I told him “Why do I have to be in Unitary Perception? Why do I have to listen to everything at the same time? Why?”
And he said “Do it and see what happens”.
It’s not we have to do nothing as many people very mistakenly believe. No. We have to do B. We have to be in Unitary Perception. It’s very important that we understand that. It’s not as many Krishnamurti readers believe, that we can’t. That we have to do nothing, no, no. That’s a very big mistake.
DO: Ok. I’m glad you clarified that point. When you say that you discussed this, not discussed, but dialogued with Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm over a period of, was it twelve years or…
RFG: Twelve years in total.
DO: Yes, in total. Well in relation to David Bohm then, what was his contribution? What contribution did he make to our understanding of Unitary Perception or… let me rephrase that. Was David Bohm’s contribution to give a basis to this in physics? Where does he come in to all this?
RFG: Well, David Bohm, the contribution of Bohm is so important that it goes beyond imagination.
I told him “What is the implication of Holokinesis?” that being the concept that he introduced in physics. “What is the implication of Holokinesis?”
He says, he told me “We cannot have the slightest idea”.
That’s what he said. Meaning the implications are so tremendous that it’s very hard to imagine what are the implications of Holokinesis. Now Holokinesis essentially means movement from here to here, which means…
DO: From here to here…?
RFG: Movement from here to here, something that has as one of the many implications a complementary understanding of time. And that’s why when I said to him “Well this means that we have to start a new Psychology”.
And he said “Of course”.
Now that’s why I say, you know, Holokinesis by David Bohm is a concept mathematically established in 1986 that… mathematically formulated in 1986, that goes beyond imagination in terms of its many implications, mostly about time. Now why do I say about time?
Because in Psychology, if we have a new understanding of time, we have to speak a new language in Psychology.
DO: A new understanding of time, what do you mean?
RFG: Right. Meaning, let’s say there are at least three basic concepts of time , you know: Time as absolute by Newton, right? For example it is 11:15 right? Absolute time, just to make it simple, 11:15. It’s absolute time.
But Einstein comes later and says “Well wait a minute, time depends on the position of the observer” right? Ah! So relative time. So we have absolute time by Newton and relative time by Einstein.
And now we have irrelevant time by Bohm.
Because if there is a movement from here to here as Bohm demonstrates mathematically, ah, then it means that the understanding of time has to be complemented.
DO: I can picture someone trying to imagine “What does that mean? The movement from here to here…?”
RFG: Right. It’s very tough to understand. Essentially, well the way he taught it to me was according to his own experience, you know, and if we… I think we can be anecdotal for a minute, right?
DO: Yes.
RFG: I tell him “Well how did you come out… how did you come about Holokinesis?”
And he goes “Well I was observing the particle, you know, the electron in the bubble chamber, right? And then what happens? I lost it.”
He goes “I lost the electron and the electron reappears in the very same place.”
So he goes “I thought I had a problem with my eye…”
(laughter)
“…So I went to the …”
DO: Optician.
RFG: To the optician right?
And the optician says “You’re doing great, you know, no problem with your eyes.”
And then he goes to Einstein. He was a good friend of Einstein. And he tells Einstein about having lost the electron and Einstein says “Yeah we see that all the time”.
And David Bohm says “Well where can I see something written, where can I study that, something written about that?”
Einstein says “Nobody ever wrote anything about that!”
And he started to investigate the matter and he comes out with a nomination for the Nobel Prize in Physics, with a very little thing like that, that nobody had heeded before and he… because he took care of trying to understand that, he received the nomination for the Nobel Prize in Physics. Very interesting that, that…This is an anecdote but it means so many things, right? In the understanding of science itself right? How a very little thing can have so many implications.