Vampire Voices of the Community Log - Feb 24th 2007

In Attendance:

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Merticus (Atlanta Vampire Alliance) *Host*

Sanguinarius (Sanguinarius.org)

Lady Cg (Smoke and Mirrors)

Imon (Les Vampires)

AncientKhan (HImself)

Raine (Bit Nibiru)

Lono (Psychivampire.org)

Gabriel (House Lost Haven)

Akifeather (House Lost Haven)

Anshar (House Lost Haven)

Ravena (DarkDreams)

Sylvere (RVCA)

<Merticus> Ok welcome to the VVC public meeting for February 24, 2007. Thank you to everyone who has shown up this evening.

<Merticus> Assuming everyone knows everyone else at present. As we do not have new members present we can commence with the schedule for tonight.

<Gabriel> nods

<Merticus> First, we'd like to reiterate that the VVC is not the only group of its kind out there nor does it assert itself and the end-all gathering of leaders or known persons in the community to come together and discuss community affairs, etc.

<Merticus> More representative of multiple groups, paths, beliefs, and segments of the VC who meet and are able to put aside personal differences, strife, and other differences of opinons to work together to discuss, suggest, and formulate projects/ideas/etc. that help to improve the VC in general.

<Merticus> Just so there is no confusion as to our intent and purpose for meeting.

<Gabriel> And no confusion outside of us, as people in the community seem to be thinking this was an end all is all "leadership council"

<AncientKhan> noted

<Merticus> Anyone care to add anything to that or further clarify for those who may have questions at a future date?

<Gabriel> in our eyes

<AncientKhan> nothing to add

<Lono676767> I agree

<Gabriel> This is open to anyone who actually wants to step up and say I'd like to join, Of course problematic's will be weighed but this is for a betterment and a more communicative community

<LadyCG> I do hope we're leaving the potential to become a larger and more influencial group, since that would lead to a more cohesive community as a whole

<Merticus> Ok onto the discussion regarding Vampirefreaks and a followup to our concerns on two fronts... the violence perpetuated by and inflicted upon members of VF in the past, including but not limited to the slaying of a member who recently went to meet an individual offline that received very little coverage if any by VF.

<Gabriel> lady: we would like that yes.. no matter creed, race, religion, or path.. it's about coming together not 'uniting' but communicating our thoughts opinions and ideals with one another for like or dislike

* Gabriel nods to merticus

<LadyCG> I have a rather dim view of VF.. I don't mind saying so.. I live near the city of Medicine Hat Alberta.. Pagans and Vampires here used to be left pretty much along till the incident involveing the 12 year old girl and that guy who killed her family here.

<Lono676767> I think most of us within the Community are concerned about the safety of our members, however

<Merticus> Basically concerns regarding VF were along the lines of 1.) Not giving proper attention to the fact that a member of theirs was murdered or extensive safety posting on their site. And that there continues to be a clear divide in public perception over VF as relating to the real vampire community rather than merely a social Gothic site for others to gather.

<Raine> I will share my opinions along with the rest of you, though whatever the consensus is, as I mentioned on the forum, I will be willing to contact Jet and speak with him about it.

<Lono676767> VF has drawn alot of unneeded negative publicity, that has even a fruitbat concerned

<Gabriel> actually slow for a moment

<Gabriel> raine

<Merticus> Basically the media taking the name and placing assumptions on our own culture and assigning to us a stigma of violence, unethical treatment of others, etc.

<Gabriel> can you tell us his viewpoints on VF? since you know the 'owner' I'm guessing?

<Gabriel> where does his mind stand in all of this besides stats, and in relation to the vampire community if you know

<AncientKhan> I made my points in the open letter on the forum, so I shant rehash, lest it's needed.

* Gabriel nods to khan

<Merticus> Well everyone convey their viewpoints on the matter. Like to hear Raine's perspective.

<Raine> Jet makes his living though VF, and with that, is able to support his family, so to him, it is more that just a community, it is his livelihood

<Ravena> well, that could go two ways, he could only care about money since the site is his living

<Raine> I would venture to say that he will not respond to any demands regarding the site (not that we would take such actions) but I am hoping that , if approaced reasonably with a letter from the community, he will at least hear our worries with an open mind

<Ravena> or he could care that the site doesn't go downhill because he'll lose money

<Ravena> I don't know which one it is

<Gabriel> raine: that's what we want to offer a reasonabile middle

<Merticus> Where does he stand on issues related to the VC as a whole and media attention given to VF that inadvertently casts a negative light on us when nearly 100% of the time no one from the actual VC has anything to do with the events transpiring.

<Raine> Well he has already issued a statement about the dangers online with such a site, so apart from our concerns, he is looking out for his own community

<Gabriel> does he have a disclaimer on signup? does he have an age limit 18 and up so that more intellectual choices of meeting can be made?

<Gabriel> is that disclaimer in relation to dangers of online?

<Merticus> Do you think he'd be willing to make a safety/clarification/disclaimer statement part of VF for future account sign-ups?

<LadyCG> The girl here who killed her family was 12... and had a profile

<Ravena> and her bf was like 23 or something

<Sylvere> Could we possibly get him to put a disclaimer on his site that states its purpose and that it is not in any way connected to the VC?

<Ravena> so he was a pedo and a killer

<Raine> the age limit is 13

<LadyCG> yes Ravena

<Gabriel> sylvere: that would be awesome

<LadyCG> its been VERY hard on the Vamp community here. **sighs.. we used to be very open.. but now.. we can't be, because the public is associating our community with what when one. its been very bad here

<LadyCG> .. yes I'm a little bitter

<Gabriel> I mean, it's really bad that this has become something for the VC to really worry about..

<Sylvere> You know, most sites like Meetup.com and Myspace require members to be at least 13. I know there's no way to police that but at least he could make it a requirement.

<Merticus> Yes, such a statement could potentially go a long way... a clear statement of what the purpose of "vampirefreaks" is as a social site driven by revenue and chat/blog community - not representative of the beliefs of modern vampirism.

<AncientKhan> Does anyone find it plausible he would add a disclaimer distancing himself from the VC with a name like vampirefreaks?

<AkiFeather> That sounds like a good idea

<Gabriel> sylv: it is 13 on VF

<LadyCG> I would sure lov eit Khan, if he would

<Raine> there is a definate age limit, which is enforced to the best of his ability, but that can only go so far

* Gabriel nods to raine

<LadyCG> I'd love to see the VC distances from VF

<Imon> I doubt he'll do that

<LadyCG> distanced, even

<Merticus> Short of changing the name nothing would ever be "perfect", however, a statement on record to use in times of these events would be nice from a media/public standpoint.

<AncientKhan> It would be nice, but i don't think he'd shoot himself in the foot like that.

* Gabriel nods to merticus

<Gabriel> which comes to the question

<Gabriel> DOES he consider VF apart of the community

<Gabriel> ?

<Sylvere> The RPG community has made efforts to distance themselves from us just as we have from them. I don't know why he wouldn't.

<Gabriel> that's been the weighing question

<Lono676767> thats a good question

<Imon> besides he's going to say what constitutes the VC?

<Anshar> If he places a disclaimer on the site that says "Vampire Freaks is not associated with the Vampire Community", that has two effects... one, it looks oxymoronic, two it places him in a potential situation where he may lose revenue and interest in his site.

<LadyCG> .. alternatively.. maybe WE need to find a way to distance the VC from the VF...

<Raine> he has nothing to do with the vampire community, but at the same time, he would not change the name of the site

<Merticus> There are only a handful of actual self-identifying real vampire "cults" on VF at the moment, the lionshare is rp or composed of kids who could not honestly even define "vampire" in a modern context.

* Anshar nods to Raine

<Gabriel> raine: wouldn't ask to change the name

<Gabriel> that's his lively hood

<Gabriel> personally

<Lono676767> lol mert

<Raine> there are some members of our community on tVF, but it is no different than those of us with a myspace page

* Gabriel grins at merticus

<Anshar> okay, here's a thought, if I may...

<Sylvere> We could ask him to define the VC as it is on ReligiousTolerance.org.

<Merticus> No, definately not advocating anything that would cut into revenues for him.

* Gabriel nods to mert

<Anshar> what if we started a cult on VF that had its own requirements for entry? (this is me trying to make a suggestion that works WITH the way his site works, not against it)

<Sylvere> No, because then we are DEFINITELY associated with VF.

<Anshar> ugh. I just used the word cult in a sentence. *sits back down*

<Sylvere> No way, forget it, not gonna happen.

<Anshar> lol yes, I see that now

<Raine> that would just make one more cult among many others

<Gabriel> yeah I'm not even going to let that one roll around my brain cells

<AncientKhan> I think that's counterproductive, Anshar. no disrespect, mind you.

<Lono676767> then we ourlseves would be...exactly syl

<Anshar> seemed a lot clearer in my head, glad I put it down on paper so you could tell me why it was flawed.

<LadyCG> I agree with Syl... unles we want to take on the responsibility of educating the VF crowd about REAL vampirism.. we'd just be advocating the site

* Anshar nods

<Anshar> yea, you're right, absolutely

<Merticus> There are two cults in operation (actually 3) that discuss real vampirism at the moment - but yes, I agree "cult" itself is a poor term to use for a group of that kind. And would not accomplish a separation by any means.

<Anshar> very true.

<Raine> we should not waste our time with making VF understand our community, as most members could care less

<Lono676767> true

<Gabriel> So should we take the time in seperation from our side?

<Anshar> it just seems like every approach is so "murky" in so many ways

<Merticus> Exactly CG, it's not out job to educate those on VF.

<Raine> exactly gabe

<Gabriel> because two letters go just the same

<Gabriel> we can point media to OUR letters

<Gabriel> but to be on the safe side

<AncientKhan> I have no qualms with members of the VC being members, but I think it's manditory we "nut up" and start differentiating ourselves from those who wish to be from those that are.

<Gabriel> I would think it be nice to at least ask for a seperation letter

<Gabriel> if he denies it

<Gabriel> then so be it

* Anshar nods

<Sylvere> Sounds like I need to get the RVCA incorporated asap. The only problem is, I don't have the $$ for the fees and I still don't have a budget plan.

<LadyCG> we could, theoretically, issue our own disclaimers on our own sites saying we are not related to that site, I supposed...

<AncientKhan> I think that's a good start, CG.

<Raine> we should definately make our own disclaimers, and perhaps SUGGEST some to jet as well

<Anshar> right CG, but the people who we would actually be concerned about associating us with them are also the same people who wouldn't bother to read a notice.

* Anshar nods

<Anshar> it can't hurt.

<Merticus> I'd start with a letter asking for a seperation/clarification of VC to the VF. If no go, then work on methods to further distance the VC from VF - be it through banners, internal letters, forum statements, etc.

<Raine> beyond that, I'm not sure what else would be realistic or fair

<Lono676767> I like that Idea ladycg

<Merticus> Quite the number of forums out there - could contact the admins of each and see their individual interest in issuing a disclaimers or something we could draft regarding VF.

<LadyCG> we have a few sites represented here.. if we were to encourage the trend to post dislaimers on Real Vamp sites that say we are not associated with the VF which is a Goth Community, it could get the word out in time

<AkiFeather> Merticus: that would be a good idea

<Gabriel> All I can see is most of the VC is fed up with hearing "yet another killing from VF's forum" --"Are Vampires ruthless cult driven killers?"

<Gabriel> in the headlines

<Sylvere> Let's get some banners up that are anti-VF

<Gabriel> I think going "anti-VF" is bad taste

<AkiFeather> nods gabe

<LadyCG> I dont' know about anti VF.. but maybe more PRO VC? lol

<Gabriel> I think drawing a line of seperation is better taste

<Sylvere> Gabe: I'm not sure it's any worse than the anti-RPG banners

<AkiFeather> just banners or statements that will shw the VC doesn't support VF

<Raine> pro vc is much better

* Anshar nods to gabe

<Gabriel> if anyone goes ANTI anything the anything part gains more attention

<Merticus> Basically the body count on VF is too high and it's negatively affecting the perception, potential well being, and peace of mind for the real vampire community.

<AncientKhan> I think before we start a VF flame war, wouldn't it be prudent to contact Jet?

<Gabriel> ancient thats what I said earlier

<Gabriel> let him have his say

<Sylvere> I'm not saying trash VF just something that says something like "No VF Zone" or something.

<Gabriel> if it's "screw em"

<Gabriel> then

<AncientKhan> perhaps, even invite him here for a one-time meeting/

<Gabriel> well

<LadyCG> Yes, I agree Khan.. but I don't think we have to be Anti VF, to accomplish what we need

<AkiFeather> nods

<Raine> we should draft a letter, I'll do my best to get it to him, and whatever haoppens from there may determine what we do or don't do

<Imon> I am still unclear on whether VF currently has safety warnings on their site?

<Gabriel> raine: letter drafting HAS started

<Merticus> Yes, no reason for it to be a negative campaign - just more a statement of fact/strong opinion from the VC about the VC and the general feeling on the matter.

<Gabriel> imon: yeah that was never answered

<Gabriel> I'm not a VFer

<Gabriel> so I dunno

<Gabriel> wow that sounded bad :S

<LadyCG> banners on our site such as "This is a Real Vampire Community" and in tiny letters underneath the disclaimer: (not related to Vampire Freaks Goth Community)

<AkiFeather> especially since you can find members of the VC on VF

<Gabriel> agreed merticus

<AkiFeather> that makes sense Lady CG

<Raine> perhaps we should turn our discussion to what we put in the letter

<Merticus> Jet did issue a statement in brief regarding safety a few weeks back on the blog/news section. Best judgement, etc.

<Imon> that would seem to me to be a first priority and yes contacting him first would be appropriate imo

<AncientKhan> If I may...

<Gabriel> making a hate war is complete Bs , and honestly should be against what we think as we all are open to others opinions beliefs.. etc.. BUT bringing up seperation and saftey is in my opinion .. responsible

<Lono676767> I actually do like the disclaimer idea cg, however I think there should be a way to perhaps, recongnize member sites of the ovc.

<Imon> nods to Mert...but that's not as good as being like permanently on the main page

<Merticus> Seperation and advocation of safety and discretion.

<Gabriel> raine: I think all the things we've discussed.. asking for seperation, maybe saftey advocation on the signup page

<Imon> or with sign up although few people read terms of agreement when signing up for stuff like that

<Gabriel> that's a LARGE step

<Gabriel> in the right direction

<Ravena> like a little icon or whatever.. but we don't want to be mistaken for a sanguinarium type organization

<AncientKhan> I believe before any public mention of VF, we need to have a discussion with Jet. I know the idea is a bit prolonged, but i'd hate to mess with a person's income if it isn't necessary.

<Ravena> only because we aren't one

<Merticus> No, something permanent or part of the disclaimer or sign-up statement would be much better for Jet to issue.

<Gabriel> imon: it won't stop the problem.. but it'll give us a way to point and go look.... it says they don't advocate being apart of the Real vampire community

<Raine> he already made a statement on safety, dso the only thing more he could do was to make it more permanent and visible

<Sylvere> I think a permanent disclaimer on the main page is the best option.

<Gabriel> I'd like to stop the problem but we can't.. he can't..

<Gabriel> we know this

<Merticus> Agree

<Gabriel> raine: exactly

<Gabriel> all we'd be asking him is

<Raine> perhaps as part of that he could mention that he is not affiliated with the vampire community and leave it at that

<Gabriel> basically generousity, to help us out

<Gabriel> and blanket us from issues that stem

<Sylvere> Could we get him to include a link to ReligiousTolerance.org's definition of the VC as part of the disclaimer?

<Raine> is there anything we can offer him in return?

<Merticus> Well keep in mind nothing is blanket across the board but definately would help.

<AncientKhan> I sincerely doubt he will publicly distance himself from the comunity. That is the initail lure, from a business standpoint.