WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7th, 1998
Upon resuming in the presence of the jury at 10:10 a.m.
--- Accused present
THE REGISTRAR: Are counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MR. COOPER: Content.
MR. McKECHNIE: Content.
MS. MULLIGAN: Yes, thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. McKechnie?
MR. McKECHNIE: Thank you, Your Honour.
MICHAEL ANDREW WINN, previously sworn
CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued) by MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Winn.
A. Good morning.
Q. Yesterday you told Mr. Cooper that you were earning 200 to $300,000. a year. That was just your estimate?
A. Yes.
Q. I take it you didn't keep records?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And that would've been in what years?
A. From mid to late '80s.
Q. Right up until the time you were dealing with the police as well?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were continuing to give evidence or give information to the police, you were still continuing your own criminal activities.
A. Yes I was.
Q. So you were still making that income.
A. Yes I was.
Q. And you told us that you got out of jail in June of 1990, you got out of Joyceville, and you went to a halfway house in June, I believe it was Kirkpatrick House, would that be correct?
A. Yes it was.
Q. When you went to that house you continued your criminal enterprises?
A. Not right off the bat, no.
Q. You waited until you got out of the house.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you provided some information during that time to those people in the house who were committing crimes, did you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Is it possible?
A. It's possible.
Q. So, when you got out of jail were you still with Debbie?
A. For a little while.
Q. And then you had a split.
A. Yes.
Q. You had a child with her?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. That 200 to $300,000. you didn't pay taxes.
A. No I didn't.
Q. So how did you spend it?
A. I was hooked on cocaine at the time.
Q. How much would you spend on cocaine?
A. Pretty much all of it.
Q. All of it. Where were you -- what kind of
-- I'm not asking you the location, but what kind of place were you living in?
A. I was living in apartments or I lived with Tommy Craig for a while.
Q. And how much cocaine would you use?
A. I don't know. A lot.
Q.What's a lot?
A.I was buying an ounce at a time.
Q. Well, would you use it all day long?
A. I'd use it all night long into the morning.
Q. And then do your job, your work during the day?
A. Pretty much.
Q. And during working hours, if we can call it working hours, when does -- somebody who does B and Es, what hours do they work?
A. Whenever.
Q. Would you do them under the influence of cocaine?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. And what, for the members of the jury and counsel here who perhaps haven't had an experience, what does cocaine do to a person when you take it?
A. I really don't know how to explain the high.
Q. Well, does it impair you the way alcohol impairs you?
A. No.
Q. It doesn't. You could still think clearly?
A. I don't know if I was thinking clearly but I could still think.
Q. And does it affect your mind afterwards, does it affect you afterwards, after you come down off of it?
A. Yeah, there's a very bad coming down time.
Q. And what's that like?
A. It's horrible.
Q. And that's what makes you want to use it again ---
A. Yes.
Q. --- to get back up. And how long does the high last?
A. It depends how you do it. I was freebasing it and using needles at the time, so when you freebase it the high doesn't last very long, that's why you go through so much.
Q. What's freebasing?
A. Smoking it like crack.
Q. How much does it cost?
A. How much does what cost?
Q. Cocaine.
A. I think I was paying 14 or $1500. an ounce at the time.
Q. And how much do you use each time you use it?
A. When you smoke a piece of crack you mean,
---
Q. Yeah.
A. --- I mean freebase? I don't know how big it would be.
Q. Well, like ---
A.If you ---
Q.--- when you say an ounce, you gave us a price for an ounce, how many times can you use that ounce?
A. Out of each gram you could probably get eight or 10 tokes out of it, which would last probably 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. There's -- what? -- 16 grams?
A. 28.
Q. 28 grams in an ounce.
A. Right.
Q. So would you use a whole ounce each day,
---
A. A lot of the times, yes.
Q. --- 28 grams? So did you always have money around or were you always short of money?
A. I think I was probably always short of money, that's why I was doing so many crimes.
Q. During that period did you ever pay any- thing to support your child?
A. I would take her out shopping and buy her stuff sometimes.
Q. But you never gave any money to Debbie for the child.
A. No.
Q. And was there an order against you to pay money?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. Never.
Q. Was there an order against you to stay away from her?
A. A couple of times.
MR. COOPER: Who are you referring to?
MR. McKECHNIE: Debbie. I think there's only one person.
MR. COOPER: Or the daughter.
MR. McKECHNIE: Oh, I see. Yes.
Q. You were ordered to stay away from Debbie and your daughter, were you?
A. I was never ordered to stay away from my daughter, no, just Debbie.
Q. Just Debbie. You also told us that you worked collecting debts.
A. Right.
Q. You told us that you did it with a gun, a sawedoff shotgun?
A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. Did you use anything else ever?
A. I've used handguns.
Q. What kind of handgun?
A. I had a 9millimetre that I liked to use.
Q. A 9millimetre is the same guns that police officers carry, is it?
A. I don't know what the police officers carry.
Q. But it's that type of a handgun?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. And is it -- how many bullets does it carry?
A. I think it was a 13 or 14 shot clip.
Q. And when you collected debts did you ever hurt anybody?
A. I've hurt people, yes.
Q. And what did you do to hurt them?
A. I've beaten them up or I've hit them in the knees with a bat, or punched them.
Q. Ever break anybody's legs?
A. I think I have, yes.
Q. You think you have?
A. I think when I hit them in the leg with the bat their leg broke.
Q. And when would that have been?
A. That would've been in the mid '80s.
Q. You mentioned the shotgun earlier with Mr. Cooper and he asked you about why people use sawedoff shotguns.
A. M'hmmhmm.
Q. You indicated that they're intimidating.
A. They are.
Q. It's also the case that they are easy to come by, shotguns are legal and all you have to do is get a legal shotgun and cut it down, is that not correct?
A. I assume so, yes.
Q. And that's why there are so many of them.
A. I don't
Q. It's easier to get a hold of a shotgun than it is a 9millimetre.
A. I didn't find it any easier, no.
Q. All right.
When you told Mr. Cooper that you were selling liquor, you were bringing liquor in from the United States?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you were bringing it in through Akwasasne or some place like that?
A. Actually it was being delivered just out- side of Ottawa for us.
Q. But it was smuggled liquor.
A. Yes it was.
Q. And you would sell that all over the city.
A. Yes.
Q. And I understand you also on one occasion stole some liquor from your employer, one of the employers you were working for.
A. Some beer.
Q. Hmm?
A. Beer.
Q. Beer. And that was The Den.
A. Yes it was.
Q. While you were working there.
A. Right.
Q. And what were you doing there when you were working at The Den?
A. I was a doorman.
Q. And what is The Den?
A. It's a strip club, a striptease club.
Q. The same as the Playmate.
A. Right.
Q. Does that have any connection with Tommy Craig?
A. Tommy used to hang out there but never managed or owned it, no.
Q. You also told us that you were offered an opportunity to perform a murder by Whitley Clauzel?
A. That's right.
Q. And how much were you offered to do that?
A. Ten thousand dollars.
Q. And this was on two occasions.
A. That's right.
Q. Were you also offered to do that by Tommy Craig at one time, to do a murder?
A. I could have been, yes.
Q. You could've been.
A. Yeah.
Q. Is it possible?
A. Anything is possible.
Q. Mr. DaSilva, do you remember that?
A. Oh, yes I do.
Q. He asked you to kill him?
A. He asked me if I would kill him if they found him, yes.
Q. Okay. And how much were you offered to do that?
A. I don't recall if there was a number ever mentioned.
Q. And you also for Tommy Craig started some fires?
A. One.
Q. Which one would that be?
A. That would've been the house out by Mano- tick or Richmond.
Q. Did you have some involvement with a steak house as well?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You were offered, though, the opportunity to burn a steak house?
A. I was offered the opportunity.
Q. I understand the reason you didn't do it is because you found out there was somebody informing or the police had information and it was too risky, is that fair to say?
A. I don't recall why it never happened.
Q. Now, you've also told us that you gave information to the police for benefits of whatever kind, right? You got cash benefits, you got favours in court and you got you gave information for bail, information for dropped charges, you gave information for money, and you're telling us lastly that you gave information for protection; is that correct?
A. I've never said I gave information for pro- tection, no.
Q. Oh. Okay. So then you gave it for all those other reasons.
A. Pretty much.
Q. And did you ever give false information in order to get any benefits?
A. I don't think so, no.
Q. So you're telling us you wouldn't lie to the police about such things.
A. I don't think I've ever lied to them about information I gave them.
Q. Never?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Well, perhaps we could just look at your criminal record. Do you have your criminal record there, Mr. Winn?
A. Yes I do.
Q. I can see on this copy that at the top of the second page there's an attempt to obstruct justice, that's
the first count on that date, and then the fourth count is another count of attempt to obstruct justice. Do you remember those charges?
A. I think I probably used my brother's name.
Q. You think you probably used your brother's name.
A. Right.
Q. Well, there's actually -- what's your brother's name?
A. I have a brother named Keith and I have a brother named David.
Q. Do you have a twin brother?
A. Keith looks almost identical to me.
Q. But he's not your twin.
A. No, I don't have a twin brother.
Q. In that case where you had obstruct justice it was more than giving a false name, you got stopped by the police and told them that you were your brother, you gave your brother's name when you were stopped by the police?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then when the police tracked you down at your home, you managed to convince the police that came to the door that you weren't yourself, that you were your twin brother and they accepted that.
A. I don't think I ever said my twin brother because I don't have a twin.
Q. All right. You said you were your brother and that you look alike.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And they bought that.
A. Yes they did.
Q. So you must be pretty convincing when the police officer -- this was the police officer who had stopped you on the road for a crime, you managed to convince him that you were the twin brother of the person he had stopped.
A. I don't know what I convinced him of. I just told him I was my brother.
Q. But on two on one occasion you told him you were a brother, on another occasion you convinced him that you were his brother your brother?
A. I guess, yeah.
Q. And you did that on two separate occasions.
THE COURT: It's getting a little complicated now. Is he convincing him he was the same brother he was before? I think you'd better clarify this. Is it sticking to the same story or is it a different story? I'm a little thick today. I don't quite get it.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. What happened
THE COURT: Just review the sort of background, maybe I'll see what the point is.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. The police officer who arrested you, you gave the name of Kevin.
A. Keith.
Q. Keith. Sorry. And then the police Keith didn't show up in court, correct?
A. I don't recall if ---
Q. Well then the police went to arrest Keith and they find you, correct? They're looking for your brother and they find you.
A. I really don't recall what happened back then.
THE COURT: And he says go find Keith.
MR. McKECHNIE: Yeah.
THE COURT: My point.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. But this is the same officer who looks at you and says you're the guy I arrested, right?
A. I don't know.
Q. And you say no, I'm not, I look an awful lot like Keith, right?
A. That could've happened like that.
Q. And he bought that.
A. I guess, yes.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, counsel.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. Now in all of the information that you've given in the past, before you spoke to the police about this case,
A. M'hmmhmm.
Q. it was always tips, right?
A. Pretty much, yes.
Q. And that involved just pointing the police in the right direction as you would describe it.
A. Actually the case before this when I was also a witness.
Q. And that would be the Italian murders?
A. Right, and the Tommy Craig sting.
Q. In the Italian murders you never went to court.
A. No I didn't.
Q. And in the Tommy Craig sting you never went to court.
A. No. Everybody pled guilty.
Q. But you never went to court.
A. No.
Q. In the Italian murders the information you had was that something you had overheard at the prison?
A. Some of it. I think some of it I was involved in the Italian murders or with the people back then.
Q. But specifically you were gave a state- ment with respect to an accused person named Franco.
A. Yes.
Q. As I understand it he's the one who was charged in that; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in that case did you overhear conversations or have conversations with Mr. Franco?
A. Yes I did.
Q. And was that at the prison?
A. It could've been.
Q. It could've been. You can't recall now.
A. I put it right out of my mind. I don't even
MS. BAIR: Just so that the record is complete, he is the not the one that was charged in that. Mr. Franco is one of the ones that was charged in that.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. So if we can just recap what you've told us is that you're prepared to steal for money, correct?
A. I was prepared to steal for money.
Q. That's fair. You're prepared to sell drugs?
A. I used to sell drugs.
Q. All right. You were prepared to sell drugs even in prison.
A. Yes.
Q. Quite a lot of drugs?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you the only drug dealer in the prison or?
A. No, there was a bunch of people selling drugs.
Q. But you said there was four to 500 grams a week of hashish going into the prison.
A. Right. There were 600 inmates.
Q. Hashish smells a lot when you use it, doesn't it?
A. Yeah.
Q. That place really must smell of hashish?
A. You're out in the yard an awful lot.
Q. I see. So you're prepared to sell drugs in the prison, you're prepared to burn homes down or buildings down anyway?
A. I was, yes.
Q. You did In fact one of the places you set on fire was a building, a commercial building with apartments upstairs?
A. That's true.
Q. People could have died in that fire?
A. Nobody was hurt.
Q. You were lucky. And
MR. COOPER: Was that a question or an address to the jury by Mr. McKechnie, Your Honour?
MR. McKECHNIE: It was a question.
MS. BAIR: "You were lucky" is a question?
MR. COOPER: In that case it's an improper ques- tion.
THE COURT: I'll rephrase it so everybody will settle down.
Q. Were you lucky then?
MR. COOPER: Well that involves speculation, Your Honour, no matter who asks the question.
THE COURT: Well it may not be. He may know if it was broad daylight, at high noon for all I know, with everybody up. I don't know what he knows. He knows when he set the fire.
MR. McKECHNIE:
Q. Did you know?
A. Did I know what?
Q. Whether there was anybody in the building.
A. I don't think so at the time, no.
Q. You didn't know.
A.I didn't ---
Q.You don't think you knew.
A. I don't think I knew.
Q. And how much did you get paid for that?
A. I think we got $2500. each.