HEAT TREATING
MARCH 2015
UNCONFIRMED
UNCONFIRMED MINUTES
MARCH 02-05, 2015
BERLIN, GERMANY
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a subsequent meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation from the Task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
MONDAY, MARCH 2 to THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 2015
1.0OPENING COMMENTS
Heat Treat Task Group (HTTG) Chair Tom Norris made opening comments and HTTG members introduced themselves.
1.1Call to Order / Quorum Check
The HTTG meeting was called to order at 9:00 a.m.,
1.1.1It was verified that only SUBSCRIBER MEMBERS were in attendance during the closed portion of the meeting.
A quorum was established with the following representatives in attendance:
Subscriber Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME / COMPANY NAME* / Francesco / Acerra / AleniaAermacchi S.p.A.
* / Nigel / Ashby / GKN Aerospace
* / Arie / Ben-Dov / Israel Aerospace Industries
* / Christopher / Borg / Gulfstream Aerospace
Ricardo / Bove / EMBRAER
* / Shaun / Brewin / Rolls-Royce PLC
* / Bruce / Brownfield / Lockheed Martin Corporation / Secretary
* / Frank / Brungs / MTU Aero Engines GmbH
* / Craig / Clasper / Spirit AeroSystems Inc.
Wojciech / Cmok / Goodrich (UTAS)
* / Michael / Corsino / Hamilton Sundstrand (UTAS)
* / Martin / Day / Honeywell Aerospace
Dieter / Deil / Airbus Helicopters
Claudia / Eilers / Liebherr Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH
* / Andreas / Elbs / Liebherr-Aerospace SAS
* / Melissa / Facas / Pratt & Whitney
* / Cristina / Gonzalez-Perez / Airbus Defence and Space
* / Gerald / Harvey / Triumph Group
Werner / Henkel / Airbus
* / Linnie / Hook / Cessna Aircraft
* / Dave / Isenberg / Parker Aerospace Group
* / Stephen / Johnson / Triumph Group, Inc.
Takehide / Maura / Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
* / Marc-André / Lefebvre / HerouxDevtek Inc.
* / Stefan / Lemberger / Airbus Helicopters
* / Hongping / Li / Commercial Aircraft Company of China (COMAC)
* / Will / Macias / Goodrich (UTAS)
* / Doug / Matson / The Boeing Company
Eirik / Mauland / GKN Aerospace Norway
* / Alessandro / Miglio / AgustaWestland
* / Tom / Norris / Goodrich (UTAS) / Chairperson
* / Eddy / Pham / Northrop Grumman Corporation
* / Sunder / Rajan / Raytheon Co.
Shlomo / Ramati / Israel Aerospace Industries
* / Alex / Richez / Airbus
Josefa / Rodriguez / Airbus Defence and Space
* / Simon / Scott / BAE Systems MAI
* / Paul / Slater / Rockwell Collins Inc.
* / Mariusz / Stanczyk / Lockheed Martin
* / Marc / Taillandier / Airbus Helicopters
* / Jeffrey / Thyssen / GE Aviation
Ludian / Tomasz / Rolls-Royce
* / Cyril / Vernault / SAFRAN Group / Vice Chairperson
Thierry / Wartel / Latecoere
* / Doug / Webb / Honeywell Aerospace
* / Tom / Wilson / Bombardier Inc.
Ling / Yap / The Boeing Company
Other Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME / COMPANY NAMEMichael / Barenberg / Otto Fuchs KG
Lorenz / Bethge / Eltro GB Ltd
Izidor / Costea / Romaero SA
Patrick / Durkin / TE Wire and Cable
Markus / Fuchsmann / Otto Fuchs KG
Gyenizse / Gabor / Alcoa-KofemKtf
Dmitry / Galaut / TurbineJet
Rudolf / Graf / BohlerSchiedetechnik GmbH & Co. KG
Hiroshi / Hamada / Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd
Novimitsu / Kameya / IHI
Ian / Kirsch / TTI Heat Treatments
Guenter / Krauss / RUAG Technology
Yvette / Lawlor / TTI Heat Treatments
Graham / Lilly / Wallwork Heat Treat
* / Iain / Mackenzie / Bodycote Heat Treatments Ltd.
Juegen / Maisel / PFW Aerospace GmbH
Ralph / Mast / VDM Metals
John / McCabe / DONCASTERS
* / Stuart / Mellor / Wyman-Gordon
* / Amir / Mendelovich / TechJet
* / Ken / Nelson / Continental Heat Treating
Nick / Olpin / Wallwork Heat Treat
Mike / Pelling / Eltro GB Ltd
Robert / Peters / M.T.I
Burkhard / Reichart / Alcoa Fastening Systems
* / Brian / Reynolds / Alcoa
Yasemin / SerefCizioglu / Tusas Engine Industries Inc.
Michael / Seyfert / PFW Aerospace GmbH
Gail / Shepheard / Doncasters Aerospace
* / Jeffrey / Sipf / Haynes International
Adil / Slimani / Metatherm SAS
Klaus / Sommerauer / BOHLER Schmiedetechnik
Tetsuo / Taniguchi / Shimadzu Aircraft Equipment Service
* / Wilfried / Weber / PFW Aerospace AG
* / Nicholas / Wood / Firth Rixson Forgings Ltd.
PRI Staff Present
Jerry / AstonMarcel / Cuperman
1.1.2Introductions – CLOSED
Tom Norris, the HTTG Chair made opening comments and had attendees make introductions.
1.2Safety Information
The Safety Information was reviewed, Fire Exits in Meeting room. If there are any emergencies contact a PRI Staff person immediately.
1.3Review Code of Ethics and Meeting Conduct – CLOSED
The code of ethics and meeting conduct was briefed to the HTTG.
1.4Present the Antitrust Video – Video from PRI – CLOSED
Marcel Cuperman briefed the HTTG on the policy of PRI expressly prohibiting video or audio recording of HTTG meetings unless formal approval is received from all attendees and recorded in the HTTG meeting minutes.
The PRI antitrust video was played for the attendees.
1.5Review Agenda – CLOSED
The HTTG reviewed the agenda for the week to highlight agenda items, including start time and stop times for each day.
2.0Task group tutorial – closed
Marcel Cuperman presented the HTTG Tutorial.
A microphone is available for anyone who would like to use it. Speak clearly, do not dismiss people’s opinions, emotional and off topics should be avoided.
2.1Review Subscriber Matrix - CLOSED
The HTTG reviewed the current Subscriber Matrix.
3.0REview delegation status – closed
The HTTG reviewed the t-frm-07 for delegated Staff Engineers.
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Doug Matson to accept the comments made for Anne Allenby Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Doug Matson to continue to delegate Anne Allen. Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Jeff Thyssento accept the comments made for Jerry Aston by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Jeff Thyssento continue to delegate Jerry Aston. Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Doug Matsonand seconded by Gerald Harvey to accept the comments made for Marcel Cuperman by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Gerald Harvey to continue to delegate Marcel Cuperman. Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Jeff Thyssento accept the comments made for Rob Hoeth by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Jeff Thyssento continue to delegate Rob Hoeth. Motion passed with none opposed.
4.0Auditor consistency - closed
4.1+/-4 NCRs – CLOSED
Staff Engineers provided data on audits where there had been +/- 4 NCR swing between audits. This information is provided to allow auditors to be highlighted, allowing the HTTG to follow up with these Auditors. The HTTG will continue to collect the +/-4 data and it will be monitored by the Auditor Consistency Team (ACT)which will provide reports and recommendations back to the HTTG.
4.2Auditor Variation Data - CLOSED
Doug Matson presented auditor consistency data, which consisted of the average NCRs for all auditors combined, and the average number of NCRs by auditor from 2009 through December 2014. The average of all NCRs has not changed significantly since 2009, however the average number of NCRs by auditor shows a significant variation in the number of NCRs written by each auditor.
Marcel Cuperman presented the (NOP-012) Nadcap Management Council (NMC)Auditor Consistency Standard Data Set. This presentation included average number of NCR’s per audit day by auditor, the number of NCR’s for each checklist question by auditor, and the average of increased NCR’s at the same supplier on the subsequent audits (Redline Report). All of the data presented for Auditor Consistency will be made available to the NOP-012 Auditor Consistency Team (ACT) for review and recommendations to the HTTG.
4.3NOP-012 – CLOSED
Cyril Vernault gave a report of the NOP-012 Sub-Team. The HTTG reviewed the NOP-012 requirements for audit observations and discussed the “red list”, the “yellow list” and the “green list”. Each list provides definitions of when auditors should be observed. The red list defines auditors that are mandatory to observe during the next year,the yellow list defines auditors that are strongly recommended be observed and the green list are suggested auditors to be observed. The NOP-012 Sub-Team identified 3 auditors on the red list and requested volunteers to observe these auditors in 2015. The HTTG members were not comfortable volunteering on such a short notice without consulting their other commitments and their company’s management.
There was much discussion on what action the HTTG takes based on the Auditor Consistency Data reviewed at each meeting. There was a suggestion that the HTTG needs to establish actions that should be taken when deficiencies are clearly uncovered by the data. One suggestion was to develop better feedback to the auditors perhaps with face to face meetings. There was a suggestion to have the NOP-012 Sub-Team explore the possibility of additional proficiency questions for auditing skills to be added to the HTTG appendix to NIP 6-01. There was also a suggestion that the Sub-Team develop a HTTG appendix to the Auditor Observation form with HHTG specific questions for use during audit observations. This discussion was deferred until the Thursday Closed Meeting.
From the discussion held at the Thursday Closed Meeting the following was agreed by the HTTG:
- Extra questions to the observation report are not required for 2015.
- Auditor proficiency assessments are not required for 2015.
- Additional auditor training modules are not required and procedure NIP6-01 appendix for HT will be updated to reflect this decision.
After reviewing all of the Auditor Consistency Performance Data the HTTG agreed not to use one of the Auditors for Nadcap Heat Treat audits.
5.0Auditor observations – closed
There were 3Auditor Observations forms reviewedfor observations conducted since the October 2014 meeting. All of the observation reports had only positive comments about the audit and auditor.
AuditorObservation reports will be reviewed each subsequent meeting.
6.0laPsed accreditation – closed
There were 4suppliers that were granted a 90 day extension by the Staff Engineers.
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Doug Matson to allow Zia Kareen to audit the Aircraft Rebuild Factory (ARF) in Pakistan since the current auditors cannot travel to Pakistan. The motion carried with none opposed.
7.0subscriber voting member participation – closed
The Staff Engineers presented to the HTTG a chart showing Subscriber Voting Member (UVM) meeting attendance from February 2012 throughOctober 2014 and HTTG ballots October 2013 to January 2015. All Subscriber members are in compliance with the requirementsfor voting membersexcept for one which did not meet the requirements for Balloting. Tom Norris reviewed this data and decided no action is necessary at this time.
During the meeting there were 4 new voting members approved:
- Paul Slater of Rockwell Collins as Subscriber Voting Member
- Chris Borg of Gulfstream US as Subscriber Voting Member
- Tom Wilson of Bombardier Aerospace as Subscriber Voting Member
- Nigel Ashby of GKN Aerospace UK as Subscriber Voting Member
8.0risk mitigation team report-out – closed
There is very little Subscriber volunteering for the Risk Mitigation Process. The HTTG Chair has been appointing members to risk mitigation audits. The HTTG members suggested that the process needs to be simplified since the Subscribers had very little training for Risk Mitigation and are not comfortable with the amount of time required to complete a Risk Mitigation audit. The HTTG members suggested that Initial audits should not be included in the Risk Mitigation Process since has been no work performed for Nadcap and therefore poses no risk to the HTTG. The HTTG members also suggested the minor NCR’s not be included in Risk Mitigation as there is no risk to product processed. These suggestions were previously relayed to the NMC and the NMC stated that both Initial audits and minor NCR’s must be included in the Risk Mitigation Process. The HTTG reviewed a Risk Mitigation audit and discussed the first three NCR’s of the audit. The HTTG suggested that the Risk Mitigation Team could be just one person which would also be the Risk Mitigation Team Lead. There is no limitation as to the number of participants so the team could be one person. However, it would be desirable to have three Subscribers form the team since the HTTG requirement for a quorum is three Subscribers. There were several suggestions of proposed wording for responses from the Risk Mitigation Team to NCR’s. The suggestions for the standard wording were provided via email to all of the HTTG members. The wording is a suggestion only and HTTG members are not required to use the suggested wording. The consensus of the HTTG is that the NCR closure should contain wording that states that “Risk Mitigation closure will not be accepted as objective evidence to avoid future NCR’s or Non-Sustaining Corrective Action NCR’s”.
9.0Google chat subjects – closed
The HTTG discussed having items discussed in the Google Chat List presented at HTTG meetings as a standing subject. The discussion in Google Chat will be used as addition information for training subjects at the auditor conference. And, it will be to use as a tool for potential updates to the Auditor Handbook and Pyrometry Guide. The HTTG decided to add all Heat Treat auditors to the Google Chat forum and to send invitations to Subscribers to join the Chat if desired.
ACTION ITEM: Marcel Cuperman will forward a current list of Subscriber Voting Members and Alternate Voting Members to Doug Matson. (DUE DATE: 22-June-2015)
ACTION ITEM: Doug Matson will add all current Heat Treat Auditors to Google Chat and will send email invitations to the Subscriber members that are not currently members of Google Chat.(DUE DATE: 22-June-2015)
ACTION ITEM: Marcel Cuperman will monitor Google Chat discussion to get discussion topics for HTTG meetings.(DUE DATE: 22-June-2015)
10.0Scope exception – closed
Scope Exception 464 was resolved during the meeting.
11.0nop-011/op 1110 New failure criteria – closed
Motion made by Gerald Harvey and seconded by Cyril Vernault to leave the Audit Failure threshold for Initial audits unchanged at this time. The motion passed with 22 in favor and 0 opposed.
Motion made by Gerald Harvey and seconded by Doug Matson to leave the Audit Failure threshold for Reaccreditation audits unchanged at this time. The motion passed with 22 in favor and 1 opposed.
12.0failure Analysis & vca data – closed
The Staff Engineers presented theAudit Failure Data by sector and in total. During 2014 there were a total of 22 failed audits which constitutes approximately a 3.3% failure rate. The average failure rate for the last 3 years has been approximately 4.5%.
To date in 2014 there have been 15 Verification of Corrective Action audits (VCA) performed. Of those 15 VCA's 1 resulted in the failure of the main audit.
13.0appeals analysis – closed
To date in 2014 there have been 14 appeals presented to the HTTG. Of those appeals submitted to the HTTG 8 were accepted 5 were denied and 1 was withdrawn. This is consistent with the appeals presented in previous years. To date in 2015 there has been one appeal submitted and it was denied.
14.0sTaff engineer handbook – closed
A motion was made by Sunder Rajan and seconded by Jeff Thyssen that the Heat Treat Staff Engineers Handbook be updated to require Staff Engineers to notify Subscriber assigned audit reviewers when the assigned audit has been moved to Task Group review in eAuditNeteAuditNet. The motion passed with 23 in favor and 0 opposed.
ACTION: Marcel to update the Staff Engineer Handbook to require SE’s to notify the assigned Subscriber audit reviewers when the assigned audit has been moved to Task Group Review in eAuditNet. (Due Date: 22-June-2015)
15.0HT-STSTG meeting – open
See HT-STSTG minutes posted at
Only Suppliers and Staff Engineers are allowed to participate.
Subscribers are welcome to observe.
16.0october 2014 meeting minutes – open
Motion made by Gerald Harvey and seconded byMartin Dayto accept the October 2014 meeting minutes as written. The motion carried with none opposed.
The minutes from October 2014 were approved as written.
17.0closed meetinG report out – open
Tom Norris gave a briefing on the discussions held during the Closed Meeting.
Tom highlighted the main items discussed during the closed meeting on Monday, March 2, 2015. The main points of discussion during the meeting Monday were Auditor Consistency and Risk Mitigation process improvement.
18.0rail - open
The Rolling Action Item List (RAIL) was reviewed.
Item # 45 was closed.
Item# 59 was closed.
Item # 60 was updated to include Google Chat in Auditor conference agenda.
For specific details, please see the current (HTTG) Rolling Action Item List posted at under Public Documents/Heat Treating.
19.0NOP-012 auditor consistecy sub-team status update – open
Cyril Vernault gave a report of the NOP-012 Sub-Team. The HTTG reviewed the NOP-012 requirements for Audit Observations and discussed the “red list”, the “yellow list” and the “green list” Each list provides definitions of when auditors should be observed. The red list defines the auditors that are mandatory to observe during the next year,the yellow list defines auditors that are strongly recommended be observed and the green list is suggested auditors to be observed. The Sub-Team continues to discuss Auditor Consistency issues, considers requirements for additional proficiency testing questions, and is working on HTTG appendix to the auditor observation form.
20.0AC7102 Baseline sub-team update – open
Marcel Cuperman presented the draft version of AC7102. There was some minimal discussion regarding the revision to the checklist. There was a comment made that suppliers starting the initial audit may use the previous checklist to do the self-audit, as they will not get an automated notification from eAuditNet that the new version of the checklist has been balloted. The checklist will go to ballot after the meeting.