Transcript of Interview with Jonathan Lazar on Rudy Maxa S Travel Show, April 23, 2010

Transcript of interview with Jonathan Lazar on Rudy Maxa’s Travel Show, April 23, 2010 :

Maxa: But first, this subject. When you call an airline, most of us hear this:

Thank you for calling united airlines, your call may be recorded for quality purposes. Please select from one of the following four options. “

But not everyone hears the same thing. If you are visually impaired, this is the sound of higher fares, and a possible violation of federal law.

Maxa: Jonathan Lazar is a professor of computer and information sciences at Towson University in Maryland. He recently completed a study on airfares offered by phone.

Maxa: Professor Lazar, what did you find?

Lazar: Well, we found that when airline web sites are inaccessible, and we looked at the top 10 airlines, and 4 of the airline web sites were inaccessible for people with disabilities. So when we called those airlines, and we identified ourselves as having a disability, and then we had someone sitting near them checking what the fare was on the web site, what we found is that in some cases, people with disabilities were charged higher fares, but what happened more often was that they were charged the call center fee in addition, which by law they can’t do. Airlines are not allowed to do that.

Maxa: Professor Lazar, Is this incompetence, do you think? Or do you think it’s ignorance, or done on purpose?

Lazar: I really don’t know, it could be that just that the call center folks aren’t trained well, it could be that the folks at the CC aren’t knowledgeable about the regulation. The regulation actually went into effect in early 2009, it was actually issued a year earlier, but airlines have known about it since May 2008, the regulations went into effect in May 2009. We were really surprised.

Maxa: Did your callers challenge them?

Lazar: Yes, they actually identified, I have a disability, and I know that there’s a regulation, that you are not allowed to charge me. And so absolutely, these were not people calling and waiting for the airline to guess. These were people…

Maxa: And when challenged, did the telephone reservation say, “oh, that’s right, we’re not allowed to charge you”?

Lazar: In many cases, they actually said, sorry, we don’t waive the fee, we don’t know about the regulation, we don’t waive the fee. That’s really what was the surprising thing to us. Because we’re talking about people who would be calling and would be very knowledgable. And would say, look, here’s the name of the regulation. The regulation is called nondiscrimination on the basis of disability in air travel. And even after identifying the regulations and saying, you can’t charge me the call center fee, the airline said, sorry, we don’t waive the fee for anyone.

Maxa: OK, well I asked United, one of the airlines that you mentioned, to have a look at your study, and here’s what it said: “We take these matters very seriously, and will immediately send a reminder to everyone about how to best serve our customers with disabilities.”

Maxa: Professor Lazar, what do you think? Is that enough?

Lazar: Well, they should have known about the regulation already, and here’s the problem, what do you do? Here’s someone with a disability, and you’re on the phone, and the call center person has already checked with their manager and say, sorry, we don’t waive the fee for anyone, what do you do at that point?

Lazar: Your only route is to file a complaint with the department of transportation. But the reality is, you just need to book a flight. You know, you don’t want to start a legal battle, you just need to book a flight, you need to get somewhere. They need to train better, you know, it’s a very hard regulation to find. If you look on the DOT web site, it may take you a half an hour on the DOT web site to find this regulation. Every airline needs to post this information. It’s almost like a hidden regulation that people don’t know about.

Maxa: Well. Let’s talk about DOT here. I asked them too, to look at your study. It said:

The enforcement office is already conducting and is continuing to conduct test calls to ensure that airlines are complying with the new air carrier access act regulation in other areas such as planeing, deplaning, and the availability of complaint resolution officials. So they are saying, we’re working on it. Do we believe this? How tough is this? Should I be buying this or not?

Lazar: Well, part of it is really education. I think pushing the airlines on it, pushing the DOT on it, letting customers know about this, as well. That’s one of the great things about being on the radio show. That there are a lot of people right now who are probably hearing this, and saying wow, I didn’t know about this regulation. The bottom line is, if you have a disability, and when you call and identify yourself as having a disability, and say, look, your web site is not accessible. And look, there are a lot of airlines that have accessible web sites that don’t have problems, where this isn’t an issue. So, this regulation deals with airlines that have inaccessible web sites. If you call one of these airlines, immediately say, look, here’s the regulation, the regulation states that you need to give me the lowest fare available on the web site, and you can’t charge me the call center fee. And if you have any problems with this, I want to speak to your manager right now. Because know that I will file a complaint. And that’s what you need to do. You must have knowledgeable consumers, and you also need to get the airlines to train their call center personnel properly. And also the people at the airport, as well. Because you might wind up getting tickets at the airport or a ticketing center, and they need to be aware of these regulations.

Maxa: We’re talking with Jonathan Lazar, who is a professor of computer and information sciences at Towson University in Towson, Maryland. The professor and his students did a study. They called the airlines and found that despite federal rules that require that airlines to waive a booking fee over the phone. At the airport as well, professor?

Lazar: Absolutely. The key is that if the web site is inaccessible. And there are airlines such as Delta and Continental that have web sites that work for people with disabilities. They follow the federal guidelines related to that. They have all of the features built in. This is not an impossible goal. This is a goal that airlines can reach. These regulations only kick in if you have an inaccessible airline web site.

Maxa: So the professor and his students called the airlines and said that they are disabled, and I need to buy a ticket this way, and in some cases, airlines did not honor that law.

What’s knocking me out here professor is that the DOT says that they are going to continue to study this. All the DOT needs to do is get a summer intern to dial airlines for 2 hours, say I’m a disabled passenger, and I need your help, and see if they will charge fees or not. Why does the government have to do these we’re going to look into this, we’re going to do a study. It’s not a big deal, anyone can do this. You and your 11 students did this.

Lazar: The benefit of your radio show is letting people know. A lot of time, it’s just getting the knowledge out there. I challenge your callers go to the DOT web site, and see if you can find this regulation. It’s tough to find. Go to any airline web site. You can’t find this. It’s not a well-known regulation. But it’s in effect, so if you call an airline, you just need to be aware. That’s part of the challenge. If everyone knew about this, really, DOT wouldn’t have to do any enforcement.

Maxa: One of the most disturbing things about the study is that a couple of the call center people who were contacted said something to the effect, when one of your people said I have a disability or I’m blind, they said, Oh I feel so terrible for you, I feel so sorry for you. That’s, we’re you dealing with call centers in the united states, or were you dealing with call centers overseas? And has there been any comment on that particular part of the study?

Lazar: Well, really, we have no way of knowing. When you call an airline, you have absolutely no way of knowing, it’s like when you call tech support at a computer company. You don’t know where your call gets routed to. And so we don’t know if it was US or based outside of the country.

Lazar: But that really was upsetting. I could see the emotion on the faces of my students with some of these responses that they were getting. There was another example. Where, and we had our students identify themselves as being blind. Because clearly there’s not a communication issue, blind people can board planes with no problems, really, there aren’t any other complexities other than that the web site isn’t accessible. And one of the call center folks started talking more slowly. And that’s just insulting. That’s absolutely insulting. So it’s examples like that. Oh, I feel bad for you, or that’s so sad, they start talking slowly and louder. It doesn’t make sense. I think that aspect of it, it’s insulting, but I think it’s due to poor training on the part of the call center folks. Because that doesn’t relate to the regulation, that’s just stupidity, and it’s mean.

Maxa: Jonathan Lazar, thanks for joining us today. I hope that we have illuminated some listeners, and maybe even some telephone reservation agents for airlines. Thanks

Lazar: I hope so

Maxa: Thanks. Take care. Nice to have you on. Airlines doing what they do best. And then Washington stepping in and I file this under “we’re from Washington and we are here to help you.” As the professor says, go on the DOT web site, and try to find the part where it tells people with disabilities that you don’t need to pay a booking fee. I imagine that people who have a visual impairment or disability know that this regulation exists, and if they didn’t know, they do not. It’s just a matter of persuading the people at the airline, you’re talking with, to honor this regulation. And it’s incredible, when challenged, here’s the code, here’s the article, I’m reading you the law. And they say, sorry, we’re going to have to charge you the fee. This is, we think travel is fun generally, we keep reminding ourselves of that. But sometimes, sometimes, you have to wonder about it.