Stockton-on-Tees

Town/Parish Councils’ Clerks Meeting

Date / Present: / Apologies:
Meeting held on Tuesday 27 October 2009 / Chris Cooke Redmarshall Parish Council
Samantha Humble Grindon Parish Council
Debbie Rudd Thornaby Town Council
Carole Whitehead Egglescliffe and Eaglescliffe Council
David Bond Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council
No. / Item / Discussion / Outcome/Action agreed
Owner
1. / Introductions / Contact details for Clerks in the Borough area are detailed on the Borough Council’s website (www.stockton.gov.uk/yourcouncil/government/parishinfo)
2. / Aims of the Meeting / To continue to develop working relationships between the Monitoring Officer (“MO”) and Clerks, and between the Clerks themselves.
To discuss issues of interest/concern.
To share knowledge, experience and good practice, highlighting areas where assistance can be provided. / MO/Clerks
3. /

Issues raised by:-

(a)  Clerks/Members
/ Chris Cooke referred to the amount of paperwork, particularly in relation to Audit, which very small Councils, such as Redmarshall, are required to have in place, and the significant amount of work this created for the clerk.
A discussion took place regarding the audit requirements placed on all councils and the auditors (based in Southampton) involved. The concerns were that the support offered/provided was not especially helpful.
The issue of variances and the complexity of the explanatory information provided in that respect seemed to be a particular problem.
Some Councils were now using external persons to undertake internal audit and accountancy work and it was indicated that this had proved an invaluable resource for the Clerks concerned.
One Council had arranged for another Council’s Clerk to carry out their audit work for them.
Four Councils had established a mutual support arrangement for audit purposes.
It was suggested that Clerks who were experiencing difficulties in this respect might wish to contact others who had been able to establish effective arrangements for dealing with audit work.
Richard Daniels (Maltby) who was unable to attend, had asked if notes of the meeting could be shared with others. It was agreed that this would be helpful and that meeting notes would be emailed to all clerks. / All Clerks
David Bond

(b) Monitoring Officer

/ The minutes of parish council meetings provided to the MO by some Clerks were an important means of understanding the issues in parishes that the councils were facing and addressing; and helped to highlight where there were any concerns or uncertainties about matters such as declarations of interest etc. It was hoped that all councils would eventually supply minutes.
The MO role and the extent of the MO’s powers in relation to parish councils was limited mainly to code of conduct/standards issues.
This could extend into meeting procedures and similar issues, particularly where they impacted on Member Conduct.
Legal advice and support beyond this was not part of the role. Limited, ad hoc, assistance might be available from Stockton Legal Services, but this would depend on the nature and extent of the query raised and the resources available. If it was possible to provide support, a cost might be involved.
Financial advice and support (involving audit, risk management) was not part of the MO role at all. / Clerks
4. /

Members’ Interests

/ Clerks present confirmed their arrangements for keeping the registers up to date and for highlighting issues in advance of meetings, where possible, to members who might need to make declarations of interest.
Reviewing register details and agenda items in good time before meetings, in order to try to spot possible interests issues and to discuss these with relevant members was seen to be helpful and good practice.
This happened fairly regularly at some councils particularly in relation to planning matters.
The MO had recently come across a case where a parish council thought that a councillor could only have a prejudicial interest if a parish matter affected him/her financially, and that where it was an organisation of which the councillor was a member which was affected financially, the councillor’s interest could only be non-prejudicial.
Clearly this was not the case. Under the Code the Councillor could potentially (but not necessarily always) have a prejudicial interest where parish business affected an organisation of which he/she was a member or in a position of general control or management.
An example was given to explain what the Code seeks to avoid (and why in such cases). This was where a Councillor who is a member of organisation A, votes at a public parish council meeting to award funds to that organisation, and his/her vote ensures the organisation is successful. Organisation B is unsuccessful. A member of the public present, who represents organisation B, is allowed to speak, but obviously cannot vote. A complaint is made about the councillor who voted and was a member of one of the competing organisations. In these circumstances the code therefore seeks to allow the Councillor to speak and explain why his organisation should get the money, provided the public can also speak about any preference they have. Neither should however have a vote.
In some parish councils (e.g. Egglescliffe and Eaglescliffe) councillors who were also borough councillors, highlighted when planning matters came up at parish council meetings that they were only expressing initial views based on the information tabled, and that they reserved the right to reconsider the matter at the time of the planning authority’s consideration and determination of the application and, if appropriate, to take a different view based on all the information then made available. / All
/ Although Councillors at some councils chose not to speak at their parish council meetings in such circumstances, and others left the meeting room, the procedure outlined above was regarded as good practice (e.g. by Standards for England).
5. /

Dispensation

/ The new dispensation procedure and documentation was referred to. The information had been emailed previously to all Clerks.
The position for parish councils had not really changed. Dispensations to allow councillors with prejudicial interests, to vote at parish council meetings, could still potentially be granted by Stockton’s Standards Committee where the number of Members of a Council prohibited from voting on a matter at a meeting would exceed 50% of the members who would otherwise be entitled to vote.
In response to a Clerk’s query the MO had recently again provided the relevant procedure and documents. If others wanted the information they should contact the MO’s Personal Assistant ( or telephone 01642 527060) / Clerks
6. /

Local Assessment of Complaints

/ A copy of a note summarising the process, and the details of complaints received and determined was circulated and discussed.
If other Clerks wished to have a copy, contact should be made with the MO’s Personal Assistant.
The statistics in the note were updated to reflect that three further complaints had now been received. Two against Borough Councillors and one against a parish Councillor.
The MO explained that, wherever possible, steps would be taken, with the agreement of all parties, to resolve an issue before it became a formal complaint. This would be done on the understanding that this was a voluntary approach and that a formal complaint could always still be submitted. Possible formal complaints had however, been avoided in some cases.
At parish level, if clerks felt that a matter might ultimately develop into a formal Code of Conduct complaint, they might wish to try to avoid this occurring. A discussion with the MO in advance could clarify if this was appropriate/possible and how the situation might best be approached. / Clerks
All Clerks
7. /

Promoting Standards

/ One of the aims of the Borough’s Standards Committee, and of the MO, was to communicate (e.g. to Town/Parish Councils) the role of the Committee and the importance of high standards in promoting confidence in councils, members and officers.
The MO referred to the Standards Committee’s Annual Return to Standards for England, which gave details of what was being done in this context. Copies of the return had been emailed to all Clerks. Further copies were available on request.
The MO outlined that before each Standards Committee meeting Clerks were provided with links to the agenda, and were given a summary of the more important/relevant reports.
Information about Standards and probity was accessible on the Borough’s website from the front page (www.stockton.gov.uk)
The Parish Liaison Forum met quarterly and information about Standards e.g. local assessment, was a regular feature.
Information about the code and local assessment had been provided direct to Clerks e.g. leaflets for display in parishes.
All of this appeared to be well received, but the question was whether anything else or more could be done to assist in promoting awareness at Parish level of the Committee’s work and of the importance of high standards?
Clerks were asked to consider this further and to let the MO know if they considered there was something more which could/ought to be done. / Clerks
All Clerks
8. /

Training Needs

/ The meeting discussed whether Clerks or parish councillors needs were being met or whether further support would be helpful.
It was indicated that the information pack regarding councillor vacancies provided by Stockton’s Electoral Services (Linda Lawty) was very helpful.
Specific “first day” support for new Clerks, by way of induction, was considered essential. Whilst the Borough Council (principally through Democratic Services and the MO) would automatically provide this where a new council was being established, this would not necessarily be the case if an existing council changed clerks. For the latter, it was agreed that a discussion with the MO initially would elicit some support directly and would enable a new clerk to be signposted to other support.
It was also accepted that fellow Clerks at other authorities were an extremely useful resource which could potentially be called upon. Contact details of Clerks were contained on the Borough Council’s website as previously indicated.
Details of professional organisations and their websites were discussed as a further resource for all Clerks to refer to, whether or not they were members of those organisations. These included:-
Standards for England (www.standardsforengland.gov.uk)
National Association of Local Councils (www.nalc.gov.uk)
Society of Local Council Clerks (www.slcc.co.uk)
9. /

Standards Committee Forward Plan

/ Clerks were asked to consider the Committee’s forward plan and to let the MO know if they considered that there were other matters e.g. more directly related to parish councils and parish issues, which could usefully be included in the plan for the Standards Committee to deliberate at future meetings.
The plan was included on each Standards Committee meeting agenda, but could also be provided on request (to the MO). / All Clerks
10. /

Future Meetings

/ It was agreed that the discussion had been worthwhile and that future meetings on an annual basis initially would be ideal.
The timing, venue and refreshments were considered to be fine. / David Bond

1

PA/MF/DIRECTOR/TOWN PARISH COUNCIL’S CLERKS MEETING 27.10.09

Stockton-on-Tees

Town/Parish Councils’ Clerks Meeting

Date / Present: / Apologies:
Meeting held on Tuesday 3 November 2009 / Paula Hall Ingleby Barwick Town Council
Maureen Milburn Yarm Town Council
Doug Parker Wolviston Parish Council
Margaret Whitehead Long Newton Parish Council
David Bond Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council / Dianne Rickaby – Billingham Town Council
No. / Item / Discussion / Outcome/Action agreed
Owner
1. / Introductions / It was explained that contact details for Clerks in the Borough area are detailed on the Borough Council’s website (www.stockton.gov.uk/yourcouncil/government/parishinfo). This was considered to be helpful resource.
2. / Aims of the Meeting / To continue to develop working relationships between the Monitoring Officer (“MO”) and Clerks, and between the Clerks themselves.
To discuss issues of interest/concern.
To share knowledge, experience and good practice, highlighting areas where assistance can be provided. / MO/Clerks
3. /

Issues raised by:-

(b)  Clerks/Members
/ Chris Cooke of Redmarshall Parish Council hadreferred to the amount of paperwork, particularly in relation to Audit, which very small Councils, such as Redmarshall, were required to have in place, and the significant amount of work this created for the clerk.
The concerns previously expressed regarding the audit requirements placed on all councils and the auditors (based in Southampton) were reiterated.
The process was felt to be too drawn out and too detailed. Delays had also been experienced in obtaining replies to queries and on occasions, it had taken months for annual returns to be signed off.
The auditors were too remote and it often proved difficult to explain matters and resolve queries over the telephone.
Some of the auditor’s employees seemed inexperienced and unaware of the realities at parish level in terms of a parish council’s affairs and the work of the clerk.
Intermediate audits had proved to be very time consuming.
It was suggested by Doug Parker that a regional office for the auditor would be an improvement, so that face to face discussions could take place.
Obtaining a postal delivery receipt and receipt from the auditor for annual returns was regarded as sensible practice. It was also suggested by Paula Hall, that clerks should only send documents which had been requested. Asset registers were not normally required, but if sent, may give rise to queries.
A number of Councils had established mutual support arrangements for audit purposes.
It was suggested that Clerks who were experiencing difficulties in relation to such work might therefore wish to contact others who had been able to establish effective arrangements for dealing with their audits.
Richard Daniels (Maltby), had asked if notes of the meeting could be shared with others. It was agreed that this would be helpful and that meeting notes should be emailed to all clerks. / All Clerks
David Bond

(b) Monitoring Officer

/ The minutes of parish council meetings provided by Clerks were an important means of understanding the issues in parishes that the councils were facing and addressing; and helped to highlight where there were any concerns or uncertainties about matters such as declarations of interest etc. The MO hoped that all councils would eventually supply copy minutes.
The MO role and the extent of the MO’s powers in relation to parish councils was explained. This was limited mainly to code of conduct/standards issues.
This could include meeting procedures and similar issues, particularly where they impacted on Member Conduct. / Clerks
/ Legal advice and support beyond this was not however part of the role. Limited, ad hoc, assistance might be available from Stockton Legal Services, but this would depend on the nature and extent of the query raised and the resources available. If it was possible to provide support, a cost might be involved. Doug Parker commented that whilst support in the form of standard documentation, reference to relevant legislation etc was helpful, it was the application of the same to particular local circumstances which was the difficulty. He felt that frequently asked questions and answers on key topics might be useful. It was suggested by Paula Hall that membership of and contact with the society of Local Council Clerks could prove to be very helpful in this respect. The membership fee was banded and linked to the clerk’s salary.
Financial advice and support (involving audit, risk management) was not part of the MO role at all.
4. /

Members’ Interests