WJR Program Summary
The Frank Beckmann Show (9:00 - 11:30 AM)
Wednesday, June 15, 2005
Denise Verner (9:30 AM EDT), president of the Association of Michigan School Counselors, responded to Frank’s recent newspaper column on guidance counselors. Mark Thimming (9:50 AM EDT), CEO of White Hat Management, joined us to talk about the life skills centers they operate in Detroit and Pontiac that are striving to help dropouts complete the educational process and earn their high school diplomas.
Monday, June 20, 2005
We also continued the discussion on counselors and education during our In-Focus segment (11:15 AM EDT) with John Boshoven, president of the MACAC, and Patrick O’Connor, who helps to train counselors and writes the “Ask The Counselor” column at
Letters posted on the Detroit News website under “Forums”
Posted: Fri. 06/24/05 02:49 PM
From: Ann Rock
City: Livonia, Mi USA
Subject:Schools/Beckman/no guts, no glory/Parent Power
Comments: Friday, June 24, 2005
Don't blame messenger for school problems
By Frank Beckmann / Special to The Detroit News
br>"Everyone agrees there are major problems in Michigan's educational system and, by extension, our state. But who's willing to take the unpopular stance to attack each one individually?
Our leaders need to take charge. They need to rebuff political pressures.
Unlike the weather in our state, we can do something about educational reform." Detroit News.
Educational reform will never happen as long as the same people control the education money.
The answer is parental power over the pursestrings of the students educational tax money. Tax money that the parent should be able to apply toward any school of their choice.
It won't cost the taxpayers a dime and the competition will improve the overall education in the state.
Most parents have their students best interests in mind and know what type of school they would best learn in. It would prevent the religious discrimination and government monopoly that parents now face by students being forced to attend a school simply due to its location. And unlike the rich the poor and middle-class would also get to choose their child's school since their tax money in the form of a tax credit or business tax credit scholarship could apply toward ANY school of the parents choice.
See Mackinac.org for more details on this Michigan workable solution already in print that just takes some Statehouse leadership boldness and guts to put into play.
Posted: Sat. 06/18/05 11:07 AM
From: Steven A. Kovacs
City: Rochester Hills, MI USA
Subject:Frank Backman's Comments - Michigan Counselors
Comments: Frank,
Speaking as a private citizen.
Thanks Frank for speaking your mind! It is amazing to me, especially being on the Board of Eduction of the second largest Oakland County School District, how when someone tries to raise a legitimate issue, a groupthink chilling challenge raises its ugly head. No, do not speak in public of something that might be controversial, embarassing, or true because that might offend someone!
It appears from the letters that 100% of counselors are dedicated, excellent, overworked, and should not be questioned. How utterly socialistic and damaging is such a view. No wonder our State Education system is in the shape it is in.
Please keep informing the public so that we can make informed decisions.
Regards,
Posted: Fri. 06/17/05 03:26 PM
From: Marsha Boettger
City: Waterford, MI USA
Subject:Guidance Counselors Fail
Comments: Lt. Governor John Cherry is clearly out of touch with his constituents. Today's High School students realize there are few, if any, manufacturing jobs to be had and do NOT aspire for jobs in the factories.
In addition, U of M President Mary Sue Coleman and her colleague MSU President Lou Anna Simon are out of touch with K-12 education in general and with High School Counselors in particular. In spite of the major funding cuts in K-12 education over the last 5 to 10 years, and the reduction in the number of High School Counselors in the public school systems, Counselors continue to try to provide students with real world information and data and encourage them to attend college so they can earn a living wage and support themselves and their future families.
Counselors also realize the manufacturing jobs that use to make this State great, that created this nations middle class, are a thing of the past. Fewer jobs will be available in manufacturing, with every passing year (take a look at GM) and everyone knows it. That's why this State's unemployment rate continues to be the highest in the nation, and hasn't come down, in spite of the "so called" recovery.
I think all three of these parties need to get their facts straight, need to get out of their offices and ivory towers, and into the community and the High Schools, so they can find out what is really going on.
High School Counselors shouldn't be held responsible for falling enrollment rates at universities -- look at tuition rates. Counselors should also not be held responsible for the economy and the reductions in school funding that have taken place. They continue to give their best efforts to the students they serve. Finally, as a newspaper, you ought to check the facts before you publish inflamatory articles like this or you ought to offer time and space for people who know what is really going on to respond.
Thanks for your time.
Marsha - A concerned reader
Posted: Fri. 06/17/05 12:59 PM
From: Susan Wizinsky
City: Metamora, MI USA
Subject:Career Guidance
Comments: I'd like to thank Frank Beckmann for beginning a dialog regarding the lack of career guidance our kids are receiving. However, it takes more than just guidance counselors to make sure kids understand what options they have for their future and what their future will require. Teachers, counselors, parents, community members, etc. need to help kids learn that Joe College and Fred Fix-it may both need a business degree to go along with their plumbing skills or Ph.D. in English. College/Vocational Training is essential, even for those once deemed "not college material". With public and private colleges and universities, "right-to try" schools, such as Baker College; community colleges; online degree programs; and vocational schools, along financial aid options, all of our youth should be able to have a meaningful career. We all need to encourage our children to pursue a fullfilling AND responsible future.
Posted: Fri. 06/17/05 08:51 AM
From: Susan Landeryou, EdD, LPC, NCC
City: Ann Arbor, MI USA
Subject:UM and MSU Presidents Insult Counselors
Comments: Mary Sue Coleman, President of U of M, describes the job performance of school counselors as abysmal. Michigan State University President Lou Mary Sue Coleman, President of U of M, describes the job performance of school counselors as abysmal. Michigan State University President Lou Ann Simon describes counselors in general as “old track coaches or worn-out teachers.” Frank Beckman interviewed both women at the Macinac Conference last week and quoted them in an editorial in The Detroit News, June 10, “Guidance Counselors Fail to Promote College.” As a high school counselor, I take umbrage. In addition, teachers, coaches, and principals are offended. These women have insulted the entire academic establishment.
Evidently the numerous Ann Arbor students going to college have received no help from their lazy, useless high school counselors. Perhaps the competency of the principals of Pioneer, Huron, Greenhills, Community High, and Roberto Clemente should be examined, since they have so many old coaches posing as counselors on their staffs.
Since I earned my Master’s degree in Guidance Counseling from U of M’s Rackham School of Education, my professors must have been pretty incompetent to have turned out so many counselors whose performance is abysmal. Ditto for the professors at other universities with counseling programs, like EMU and WSU.
The State of Michigan is also culpable, since they (apparently erroneously) thought enough of U of M’s degree to award me certification as a school counselor for grades K-12. I went on to be licensed by the state as a Licensed Professional Counselor and am also a National Certified Counselor. I have a doctorate in education, am certified to teach all subjects in grades K-8, special education in grades K-12, and English and Social Studies in grades 9-12.
My initial shock, dismay, and disappointment have turned to anger. Heretofore, I’ve heavily promoted U of M and MSU to my high school students. Will I continue to do so? Not at present. President Coleman may be right; after reading the article, I AM feeling a little worn out.
Susan Landeryou
Posted: Tue. 06/14/05 04:35 PM
From: Jane Reiser Williams
City: W. Bloomfield, MI USA
Subject:Guidance Counselors fail to Promote College
Comments: Please tell me where the research is that supports Frank Beckman's June 10 article entitled "Guidance Counselors Fail to Promote College." The statement was made that very little professional education is required for these positions. How untrue and absurd. We (yes, I am one of those "old track coaches" and "worn-out teachers") must have our Bachelor's degree, and in most cases, some years of experience in the classroom, and oh, yes! just a little non-professional thing like a Master's degree in Guidance and Counseling.
I personally have been a guidance counselor in districts ranging from rural to high socio-economic suburban, and have yet to see the 1:250 ratio recommended by my associations. Alhough I currently work in a "have" district, my ratio is still 1:350, in a high school where 98% of the student attend college when they graduate. Despite this ratio (and being well aware that many of my other colleagues have higher ratios than this), we still deliver personal and social counseling, many forms of standardized testing, especially those now mandated by the state, work with parents to get help for their children, and teachers to deliver services to these children, and a plethora of other duties, not to mention the amount of scheduling required each year to get all students the best fit for their needs.
Contrary to the picture painted, we are very fond of our students, very invested in their futures, and proud of their accomplishments. Likewise, we share in their disappointments, and hold their hand in their pain. (Ask how many counselors, on top of all of their other responsibilities, provide support groups for grief, for children of divorce, for Special Needs students ... we attend graduations, and the parties that go with them, funerals and the sadness that goes with them, dance recitals outside of schools, school plays and concerts, etc.) We work with the whole child, despite the fact that, according to this article, we are apparently so aging and burnt-out that we must, it insinuates, sit with our feet up, drinking coffee and reading romance novels during the school day.
As for college counseling: In the high school where I currently work, every student 9 - 12 works on their ECDP, another state mandate, but one that allows us to work with them regarding career and college plans. We also meet individually with each junior in the fall to help them with their college search, among other things; we provide a college evening for parents and students; we work with all Michigan and many out-state colleges regarding admissions criteria and the acceptance of our students.
This last causes me to be very startled at the statements made by the 2 University presidents. First, they are making defamatory comments with absolutely no documentation. Second, my high school alone sends many off to those particular campuses each year, and that is because they are prepared to do so, based on the criteria set forth by all colleges, but especially MSU and UM. Their admissions people visit our schools, talk to our youngsters, email and telephone the counselors constantly. Since we are "abysmal", I find it interesting that we are on a first-name basis with these college reps and that we maintain a regular connection for the sake of our students. Most counselors that I know have high case loads, take their work home at night, give of their own time in the summer to get school ready for the fall, and work with all students, to get them ready for college (the one that fits them best) or trade school or whatever happens to be the route they choose to follow, after we have discussed their interests, abilities, and desires.
I would not mind being criticized constructively if there were a solid basis from which it came, i.e.,if Frank Beckmann or either President spoke from personal knowledge other than, possibly, a bad experience they might have had on one occasion. As for the University administrators, I can not believe that anyone in such a public position would make such irresponsible statements. I tried to write this letter in an upbeat and political manner, but found that I was just too angry at this gross misunderstanding to use the skills a counselor uses every day: patience, kindness, and the ability to see the other's story. I invite Mr. Beckmann, Ms. Coleman and Ms. Simon, and yes, even Mike Flanagan, to spend the day in a life of a counselor before they publicly comment on it again.
Posted: Tue. 06/14/05 03:42 PM
From: Trish Guarino
City: Berkley, MI USA
Subject:High School Counselors
Comments: Once again the educators take the hit but this time it is from within the ranks!!! Education is so important yet we spend more money on sport's palaces than on education. Just what is the counselor to student ratio in most public schools? I work in a parochial high school (yes, there are a few left) and our ratio is 1:150 plus support staff---and that is exceptional!!! In these huge high schools how can counselors possibly get to every student much less spend the kind of time necessary to sell college to kids who never considered it?? They can't and as a result those students who aren't self-motivated have no idea what their options are.
To say that most high school counselors are just retreads is an insult and Simon and Coleman should be ashamed. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. Get out of those ivy covered towers and come down and lend a hand!!!!
Posted: Tue. 06/14/05 11:56 AM
From: Dave Taylor
City: Saline, MI USA
Subject:Guidance counselors fail ...
Comments: Public Schools fail to promote College
I have admired sports broadcaster, Frank Beckmann, for many years as an avid fan of Michigan and Detroit sports and appreciate his efforts to address some important issues confronting educators and families in Michigan.
As a school guidance counselor for twelve years, I chuckle at comments and articles made like this; unfortunately, these critical comments aren't laughable since they are hurtful to many in my profession including myself. For this reason, I'd like to address some of these issues professionally.
The first area that Mr. Beckmann addresses is the perception that to enjoy a successful life, one must possess a college degree. He cites Lieutenant Governor Cherry's concern about the 23% dropout rate, and a recent EPIC/MRI poll projecting 27% of parents believing that a college degree is essential while half of Michigan's parents disagree that every child should go to college.
Yes, guidance counselors face a substantial challenge when the culture at home doesn't support strong educational values; however, guidance counselors are not the only educators that are responsible for curing dropout problems or facilitating students to higher education opportunities. The entire public school system: school boards, administrators, teachers, etc. help influence and facilitate student choices in addition to their home and community. While many public school districts like to highlight their points of pride with how many students attend colleges and universities, no districts are bold enough to make school board policies regarding higher education placement.
In many schools, the ratio of students to guidance counselors is quite high. Nationwide, it is approximately 590 students to one guidance counselor. Only one public school district in Michigan contractually will add a guidance counselor if the ratio goes above 250:1 as the American School Counseling Association recommends. More and more guidance counseling jobs are being eliminated and/or guidance counselor to student ratios are being increased. It is difficult to see every student especially when there are complaints about students missing important class time.
Guidance counselors are also given a myriad of duties that have no relationship to counseling activities we were educated for; we are given many administrative and/or secretarial duties that may take precedence over other duties. Still, in spite of many obstacles to facilitate higher educational opportunities, school guidance counselors have been instrumental in encouraging students to challenge themselves to take more rigorous coursework as the President's Council suggests ( keys to high school success that Michigan Association of Secondary School Principals suggests ( and ACT standards of transition and pathways to success ( are recommended.