NONDESTRUCTIVE TESTING
NDT TASK GROUP MEETING MINUTES
APRIL 18 – 21, 2005
FRANKFURT CITY-SOUTH CONFERENCE CENTER
MAILAENDER STRASSE 1
70 MAILAENDERSTR 1 DIRECT HWY
FRANKFURT, GERMANY
The Nondestructive Testing Task Group is currently reviewing audit reports and making recommendations to The Nadcap Council on Accreditation for the following methods:
- Liquid Penetrant
- Magnetic Particle
- Ultrasonic
- Radiography
MONDAY APRIL 18, 2005 AM SESSION
THIS MEETING IS LIMITED USER MEMBERS (U. M. ONLY)
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a subsequent meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation from the Task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
1.0Opening Comments
1.1Call to Order and Quorum CheckThe Chairperson called the meeting to order and quorum was established
1.2Introductions Completed
1.3Routing of Attendance ListCompleted
ATTENDANCE
Voting Members Present
Chuck AlvarezGoodrich Aerostructures Group
Stephen BauerNorthrup Grumman Corporation
Alain BouchetSNECMA
*Robert CusterAAA Plating & Inspection Inc
Yves EsquerreAirbus SAS
*Paul EvansNDT Inspection and Testing Ltd.
Greg HallCessna Aircraft Co
Trevor HiscoxAirbus SAS
Robert HoganHoneywell
*David MitchellMitchell Labs
Manfred PodlechMTU Aero Engines GmbH
Carl RocheTextron Systems
Ron RodgersGE Transportation
*Cynthia RothTeam Cooperheat – MQS
David RoycePratt & Whitney
Bobby ScottBombardier
*Ryan SouleHowmet Corporation
Andy StathamRolls-Royce Plc
Voting Members Present
Andrea SteenRolls-Royce Corporation
Jerry StutzmanGoodrich-Turbomachinery Products
Peter TorelliBoeing Company
Scott SullivanHoneywell
- Supplier Voting Members
User Members Present
Juergen BurchardsMTU Aero Engines GmbH
Philip Keown (Chairman)GE Transportation
Jose AlconAirbus Espana
Other Participants / Members
Patrick Auge’Lads CRC
Jeb BarnesAerostructures Hammble Ltd
Andy BaveuerE.M. Inspection Co
Sylvain BisaioAlcoa Howmet Casting
Hugh DickinsonBoeing Winnipeg
Mark HermesHoneywell
Randy HitePCC Structurals Inc
Thieiry JacquesEurocopter
David KimberATK Space Structures
Heinrich KuchlbauerAerotech Peissenberg GmbH & Co
Serge LabbeHeroux Devtek, Inc.
Thierry SalmonAubert & Duval
Johannes VrekeHoneywell Aerospace GmbH
Jerry WahlinAAA Plating & Inspection Inc
Mark WarcholAlcoa Inc.
Paul WayOrange Coast Testing
Zato YurddasRolls-Royce Deutschland
PRI Staff
Mark Aubele
Phil Ford
2.0eAuditNet:Update and discussion of process and policies
Nothing new, the program is continuing. New sub Groups have been formed to include new members. It was explained that the sub group votes are proportional to the total percentage. There are five sub groups, if a reviewer votes on all of the audits allocated to their sub group then he/she has voted on 20% of the total.
2.1Requests for Extension:
No requests received.
Supplier advisories will be added to the agenda of the fortnightly teleconference calls.
The system utilized for supplier advisories is under review by staff.
A Prime discussed a Supplier that will be closing at the end of the month.
2.2Failed Compliance Report:
Staff Engineer Ford presented a report on failed compliances. It was recommended that in the future the report include the actual figures that are used for the charts.
Clarification was made that all failed compliance data is recorded individually, not by Supplier.
All data will be posted on the web site to be available to the Primes
2.3Prime Participation:
The following observed audits / auditors during the past quarter, Pete Torelli of The Boeing Company, Andrea Steen of Rolls Royce Corporation, Ron Rodgers of General Electric Transportation, and Trevor Hiscox of Airbus. All were satisfied with the audit and the auditor’s performance.
It was suggested that the amount of time spent reviewing procedures versus the time spent observing hardware inspection be noted. Staff noted that the procedure should be reviewed prior to the audit.
2.4Auditor Issues / Advisories / Kaizen:
An Auditor advisory was sent stating that all procedures reviewed should be sent to the Staff Engineers.
Grant Reynolds resigned as an Auditor. Grant had performed 35 audits and will be missed. Good luck Grant.
Pascal Sorgius and Brian Rossiter of Aecma Pro are now qualified Auditors. Welcome to both of you.
Four auditor interviews will be conducted Wednesday, two in the a.m. and two p.m. Several Task Group members volunteered for the interview process.
2.5Baseline Checklist / Standards / Prime Supplements:Pilot Audits?
Chairperson Keown reported that we still have not received enough responses to legally accept the baselines. 18 are required, 10 have been received. These ballots have to be completed this week.
Prime Supplements must be sent to Staff as soon as possible.
Staff Engineer Aubele emphasized the need for all Primes to be involved in Auditor training.
Staff Engineer Aubele requested that the matrix of Suppliers approved by the Primes must be kept up to date. This is imperative to applying the Prime Supplements
2.6Prime Status (40 –30) Voting Status
The eligibility of Task Group member voting was discussed. The Task Group has always practiced “one person one vote”. This may be changed to “one company one vote” based on mandate, if the need arises.
It was reported that the GE’s, Airbus’s, Boeing’s, etc are Prime 40’s and are “approved” for all Nadcap business. The Prime 30’s are Primes that have a limited supplier base and maybe a supplier to a Prime 40.
Prime 30’s are to excuse themselves, i.e. leave the room or disconnect from teleconferences if Suppliers under discussion are not one of their Suppliers. Prime 40’s have full rights in regards to suppliers.
2.7Task Group Member Approval to review Audits
All Prime reviewers are reminded to keep up with all eAuditNet training requirements.
3.0New Issues
PRI staff is recommending that the reports that are currently being sent to the Task Group via email be posted on the internet. This information will only be available to the Primes. These will include but not be limited to Minutes, Agenda, Prime / Supplier attendance, Auditor evaluations, etc.
Staff will inform the Task Group by email when the site is updated and supply a link.
A report was given concerning the Chemical Processing Task Group’s practice of sending a Supplier Guideline document with the 1st NCR of the audit.
Discussion ensured regarding the cycle time failure policy. Currently after 4 cycles the Staff Engineer may notify the Task Group during the fortnightly conference call that this threshold has been reached.
MOTION MADE by Trevor Hiscox and seconded by Bob Hogan when a supplier reaches the threshold described in the audit failure policy that audit will stay on the fortnightly phone call agenda until resolved.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Discussion ensued concerning the ASNT central certification program and the possibility of applying this to the aerospace industry. ASNT has requested an agenda item at the October meeting.
MOTION MADE by Ron Rodgers and seconded by Bob Hogan that the October agenda excludes the presentation by ASNT concerning central certification. There is simply not enough interest at this time for a central certification program in aerospace NDT. It was however acknowledged that some would like to at least see the presentation. The presentation will, therefore be posted on the intranet for the Primes to review.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Discussion ensued concerning Level 2 oversight of other Level 2’s during the internal audits. This will be discussed during the baseline ballot review.
Discussion ensued concerning a Level 3 issue with some European Primes.
Discussion ensued concerning the overhaul performance of Level 3’s.
MONDAY APRIL 18, 2005 PM SESSION
THIS MEETING IS OPEN TO ALL PARTICIPANTS
1.4Approval of Previous Meeting Minutes
MOTION MADE by Ron Rodgers and seconded by Jerry Stutzman to accept the minutes of the January 2005 minutes.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
4.0PRI Staff Report: The following is the Staff Report as presented:
- AUDITOR HIRING
PRI is still working towards several auditors in Europe and Asia. Training audits are also being conducted to continue the process with previous selectees. The Task Group will be asked to conduct several telephone interviews at this meeting.
AUDITOR TRAINING
The NDT Auditors and in fact all auditors will visit Pittsburgh from all over the world in October of 2005 to participate in the annual Auditor Training sessions. There will be a proposed NDT Auditor training agenda presented at this meeting. Suppliers will again be asked to participate though this year some rules have been placed into effect for all Task Group regarding who may participate.
2.eAuditNet
The electronic audit system, eAuditNet is fully functional and has been for some time. The first totally electronic audits were conducted after November 3, 2002. The Task Group developed a “Team” system to review the audits on line and establish work requirements. Voting is held bi-weekly for all audits submitted into the system. The NDT Task Group NTGOP Appendix 1 has been completely revised to address the changing issues associated with eAuditNet.
- DELEGATION
Full Delegation was granted by the T.G. to Phil Ford at the July 2003 meeting. The delegation encompasses 3 full time Staff Engineers who review NDT reports, and includes all reports, Major, Minor NCR’s, initials and reaccreds. Mike Gutridge joined NDT full time in July of 2003. A new staff engineer, Jim Bennett, joined the NDT group in January of 2004. The Task Group granted Jim delegation in October so all of the NDT staff engineers are delegated. Metrics are being taken for all staff engineers.
- METRICS FOR THE VALUE ENHANCEMENT TEAM (VETS)
Trends within a Supplier, Top 5 NCR Areas, Major VS Minor, are being provided once per year, in January, per Task Group direction. Additional new metric data on Task Groups and Performance began several months ago and continue to be evaluated at this meeting.
5.PROGRAM EXPANSION - The biggest issue facing the NDT Task Group is the New Baseline Checklists and Standards. We will finalize the Task group and Supplier ballots at this meeting. Additionally, the prime specific supplements will be worked on and discussed.
In regards to Auditor Training, the following are the guidelines for Supplier Participation in Auditor Training:
Suppliers may only attend if they are a Supplier Voting Member or if they are asked to attend by the Task Group Chair. They may also attend if asked to present by the Task Group Chair. They must also register prior to the meeting.
Suppliers will only attend as observers. They will not actively participate unless asked by the Task Group Chair or PRI Staff
Meals will be provided for suppliers only if they are presenting and the training goes through lunch. In other words, if it is a half-day training session, lunch will not be provided. Lunch will also not be provided for attending suppliers, only presenting suppliers.
These guidelines are being put in place because the primary objective of auditor training is training the auditors and this is where the focus must be. While there is nothing secret about the training and we are not trying to exclude suppliers, if there are too many people present, it can be distracting and take away from the effectiveness of the training.
It is also the intent that the requirements for being a SVM or invited and to only observe be placed in NTGOP-001.
4.1Task Group Business Plan / VETS Metrics:
The Task Group metrics were presented. These included the number of year to date audits, certs issued, cycles to close audits, Supplier cycle times, Staff cycle times, Task Group cycle times, merit eligibility, and Prime support.
4.2Report of PRI Staff Delegation Metrics:
The quarterly delegation metrics were presented. The results for the quarter ending April 2005 are as follows,
Staff Engineer Gutridge, 25 audits reviewed with a total of 66 NCR’s – 100% concurrence
Staff Engineer Aubele, 10 audits reviewed with a total of 62 NCR’s – 100% concurrence
Staff Engineer Ford, 45 audits reviewed with a total of 280 NCR’s – 98% concurrence
Staff Engineer Bennett, 34 audits reviewed with a total of 210 NCR’s – 100% concurrence
4.3Report of Newsletter:
The latest newsletter is out. Thanks to Staff Engineer Bennett for his continued good work. The next newsletter will contain a report from the FAA concerning studies conducted with the K-SAR program. Suppliers especially are encouraged to contribute to the newsletter.
4.4Technical Issues:
Ron Rodgers reported on the ad-hoc group for digital radiography. Nothing new to report. There does not seem to be enough Prime “approved suppliers” to support the program.
Mr. P. Auge, vice president of COSCA, a French third party NDT certification program, gave a presentation. The French certification program started in 1969 and included the NF Standard A09 010, and since, EN 473, EN 4179, and EN 45 013. Currently the program combines PrEN 4179 and NAS 410. The presentation was followed by a question and answer period. Much debate ensued.
4.5Report of NDTMA Meeting in Las Vegas
Chairperson Keown gave a report; the association requested that the Task Group give a presentation on the Nadcap program at the meeting. Phil and Staff Engineer Aubele gave the presentation. Phil stated that a letter in the “Penetrant Professor” did not provide a good portrayal of the presentation. Dave Mitchell was in attendance and thought all went well.
5.0Supplier Meetings Report:
David Mitchell of Mitchell Labs and Chairperson of the NDTSTSTG reported on the meeting. The committee would like to have a Supplier Symposium at the October meeting to address the top 5 NCR issues from the VETS metrics, in an effort to reduce the number of NCR’s written.
MOTION MADE by Ron Rodgers and seconded by Andy Statham that a Supplier Symposium be organized for the October meeting.The symposium will address, but may not be limited to, the VETS metrics to reduce audit findings, Supplier merit, and corrective actions.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
An Ad-hoc committee was formed to plan / start the process. Prime volunteers are Scott Sullivan, Ron Rodgers, Andy Statham, Pete Torelli, and Trevor Hiscox.PRI staff representative will be P. Michael Gutridge.
An Ad-hoc committee was formed within the NDT STSTG to investigate increasing the attendance at the committee meetings.
6.0Supplier Voting Members – Rules and Safeguards:
The NDT Task Group can have 8 Supplier Voting Members and their number cannot exceed the number of Prime Voting Members present. There can be more than 8 named voting members but only 8 can vote at any meeting. This is per NTGOP 001 Appendix 1.
3.1New Issues
The possibility of an international aerospace certification program was discussed.
MOTION MADE by Andy Statham and seconded by Dave Mitchell to adjourn.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
TUESDAY APRIL 19, 2005
THIS MEETING IS OPEN TO ALL PARTICIPANTS
Phil Keown gave a report on the Planning and Ops meeting. The Chemical Processing Task Group is investigating a checklist on demand. Audit cycle time is of concern. In some cases Task Groups have 150-day-old audits, this maybe due to the lack of a quality system approval at the Supplier. If a supplier does not have a quality system audit when the audit is scheduled, an AC 7004 audit will be scheduled.
7.0Auditor Training – Discuss and establish a plan for training of Auditors at the October meeting:
The proposed Auditor training agenda was discussed. Saturday will be PRI Staff training; Sunday will focus on the Baselines. Monday will focus on Prime unique requirements / Baseline Supplements, pre-penetrant etch, and Auditor on site conduct and practices.
6.1Baseline Checklists Discussion – Possibility of having two checklists for initial vs. reaccredidation audits:
This topic was discussed.
6.2Baseline Checklists and Standard Review – Discussion of Ballot Results:
Ballot comments for the AS /AC 7114, Quality Standards, standard and checklist were discussed
Ballot comments for the AS /AC 7114/1, Penetrant, standard and checklist were discussed
MOTION MADE by Ron Rodgers and seconded by Bob Hogan to adjourn
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
WEDNESDAY APRIL 20, 2005 SESSION
THIS MEETING IS OPEN TO ALL PARTICIPANTS
Several Task Group members participated in telephone interviews with two candidates in Europe.
6.2 Baseline Checklists and Standard Review – Discussion of Ballot Results:
Ballot comments for the AS /AC 7114/2, Magnetic Particle, standard and checklist were discussed
Ballot comments for the AS /AC 7114/3, Ultrasonic, standard and checklist were discussed
Ballot comments for the AS /AC 7114/4, Radiography, standard and checklist were discussed
With the checklists and standards ballot review completed, PRI Staff will make the revisions from the ballot comments that where received. The checklists and standards will be sent to the Task Group for a seven-day affirmation ballot. (the 7 day time frame was decided by the Chairman as required by procedure) Final approval is planned in July; with pilot audits being conducted late 2005.
MOTION MADE by Trevor Hiscoxand seconded by Dave Royce to adjourn
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
THURSDAY APRIL 21, 2005 SESSION
THIS MEETING IS LIMITED TO USER MEMBERS ONLY
6.3Digital Radiography – Update
It was determined that digital radiography will be tabled until there is more of a need.
6.4Prime Supplements to Checklists:
The approval of the Prime Supplements was discussed
Several Task Group members participated in a telephone interview with a candidate for Asia.
MOTION MADE by Ron Rodgers and seconded by Steve Bauer to adjourn
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Respectfully Submitted,
David N. Royce
NDT Task Group Secretary
***************************************************************************************************************
***** For PRI Staff use only: ******Are procedural/form changes required based on changes/actions approved during this meeting? (select one)
YES* NO
*If yes, the following information is required:
Documents requiring revision: / Who is responsible: / Due date:
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