South of Tyne Primary Care Organisations
Integrated Consultative Group
Notes of the meeting held on 18 December 2006
Present:Karen Straughair, Chief Executive, Chair
Vicki Taylor, Director of HR and OD
Bev Atkinson, Director of Provider Development
Chris Macklin, Director of Finance,
Richard Barker, Chief Operating Officer
Mark Ryan-Daly, Unison, Gateshead PCT
Kelvyn Petrie, Unison, Gateshead PCT
Norma Harris, Director of Governance & Corporate
Development
Janet Downie, Amicus, Sunderland TPCT
Ken Richardson, Unison, Sunderland TPCT
Carolyn Taylor, Amicus, South Tyneside PCT
Alison McDonald, Amicus, Gateshead PCT
Roger Nettleship, Unison South Tyneside PCT
Steven Holmes, Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists South
Tyneside PCT
Ruth McKeown, Director of Public Health, South Tyneside
PCT
Alison McNally, Unison, South Tyneside PCT
Denise McLaughlin, RCN, Gateshead PCT
Diane Wilkinson, Amicus, Gateshead PCT
Mark Tull, Unison, Gateshead PCT
Chris Piercy,Director of Nursing, Gateshead PCT
Paul Docherty, Senior HR Manager, South Tyneside PCT
Sue Taylor, Assistant Director of HR, Sunderland TPCT
Michelle McGuigan, Head of HR, Gateshead PCT
Gill Lambert, HR Manager, Gateshead PCT
In attendance:Lynne Lane, HR Development Manager, Sunderland TPCT
1.Apologies for Absence
Formal apologies were received from Elma Alexander, James Ellam, Marion Langley and Lucy Goy.
2.Notes of the last meeting
The notes of the meeting held on 6 December 2006 were approved subject to the following amendment – Alison McNally was present.
3.Matters Arising
3.1Health and Safety Committees
Vicki Taylor reported that Health and Safety leads had been working on a report which would be presented to this group formally. The three local Health and Safety Committees would be required to carry on as normal for the next couple of months.
3.2Discussion on local issues in South Tyneside
Vicki Taylor informed members that a meeting had taken place to discuss outstanding issues and a way forward had been identified following further discussions at the HR Integrated business meeting. A further issue of lease car arrangements related to all 3 PCTs and would require further discussion.
3.3Senior Managers South of Tyne
Vicki Taylor reported that a meeting had been heldwith senior staff thathave been accountable to Directors in the former management arrangements. The meeting had been an opportunity to communicate with these managers to ensure they were being effective and supportive within their own teams. Karen Straughair reiterated this by acknowledging the clear message from Staff Side about this level of staff and that there was a lot of work to be done. Karen planned to speak to the Management Team to help focus staff.
3.4Corporate Induction
Vicki Taylor confirmed that the integrated corporate induction programme was moving forward. Carolyn Taylor requested that Staff Side be involved.
ACTION:A report on the Corporate Induction ProgrammeVT
3.5Arrangements for Staff Side Release
Vicki Taylor reported that discussions had been held with South Tyneside PCT Staff Side and a proposed date of 19 December 10.30 am had been suggested. Gateshead Staff Side were unable to attend on that date and it was therefore agreed that another date be arranged.
ACTION:A date be arranged with all Staff Sides VT
- Update on Director Appointments
Karen Straughair informed members that Richard Barker had now been appointed as Chief Operating Officer. Of the remaining two Director posts, interviews for Director of Commissioning and Reform were to be held on 19 December and for the Director of Public Health would be held in January 2007. In the meantime there may be an Acting Director of Public and Karen would report back. Roger Nettleship enquired about the candidates for the post of Director of Commissioning and Reform and Karen explained the criteria the Panel would be looking for.
- Development of Integrated Governance Arrangements – Update
Norma Harris reported that a session had been held with Non-Executive Directors along with clinical members of the Interim Professional Executive Committee to discuss structures and processes.
Karen Straughair reiterated that this would be an important guide to how we work together and protect local issues. Karen also described how everything would need to go through the auditors and be based on legal advice. She went on to explain that this was the core business of the Non-Executive Directors as they were required to hold PCTs to account.
- Integrated Management Arrangements – Potentially affected staff and Feedback from local discussions
6.1Draft letter to staff
Vicki Taylor explained that the lists of potentially affected staff had been shared with respective Staff Sides and this had highlighted a question on the criteria used to determine ‘clinical’ manager roles.
Sue Taylor reported that Sunderland TPCT had met with Amicus and Unison representatives and a further meeting was needed with GME/BDA/RCN. The list had been agreed other than the question of clinical management roles, i.e. what does 25% management look like? HR had a proposal that may help decide, for example, would a clinical supervisor be included as a clinical manager, and is ‘case-load’ management included. Sue went on to describe how the 25% might be made up – to include budget management, staff management, service development and influencing policies outside of professional field.
Vicki Taylor confirmed that discussions would take place within HR to ensure that the lists across the 3 PCTs were similar in criteria and approach.
Sue Taylor circulated the draft letter and requested comments by the next meeting.
Carolyn Taylor raised a query about when staff would find out if they were at risk, as at the recent Staff Briefing Vicki Taylor had said it would be March/April. Vicki Taylor confirmed that people would not be at risk until March/April and there was a specific HR implication of declaring someone ‘at risk’. Karen Straughair reiterated that there were a lot of staff ‘potentially at risk’ not yet definitely at risk.
During discussion it was highlighted that the posts in Public Health would require some clear criteria and guidelines to determine which were to be included and which not. The ‘Choosing Health’ Public Health document should be used which gave clear guidance.
Further discussion also took place regarding the draft letter and it was agreed that the letter should be amended to include reference to the Staff Side who were available for help and that responses would go to Vicki Taylor.
ACTION:Comments on draft letter to Vicki Taylor by 31 Dec ALL
6.2Process to advise staff
Roger Nettleship stated that members had been through the AfC process and review and the Branch and members were not happy if people would have to apply for their jobs.
Vicki Taylor informed members that the HR Framework Working Group had been set up to look at the process which would include slotting in and agree definition. There may be certain jobs where there was one clear person who could claim it was their job and there was no desire for people to go through the process if they could use the slotting in criteria. There are some areas, e.g. Human Resources, where there could be three people doing a similar role and have a claim on a job therefore we need to keep open so there is equal eligibility.
Karen Straughair reiterated that there were two steps in the process – principle and practice. The principle was that there was a need for a robust effective policy to guide the process and in practice it is not yet possible to say as work has not yet begun on structures. There will be people who slot in and other who will go through the longer process. Karen also stated that she would be scrutinising everything as there was a need to save in some areas and strengthen in others.
During further discussion it was noted that it was the banding of posts in the new structure which was being questioned, i.e. there may be posts in the structure which are new however there may be posts which have not changed at all. Vicki Taylor also pointed out that there may be similar posts across the three organisations which were on different bands and there would be a need to ensure consistency.
- Working Groups Update
7.1Terms of Reference
Sue Taylor circulated the Terms of Reference. The sub-group had met however Mark Tull was the only Staff Side able to attend. The main changes to the document were highlighted in italics.
During discussion various points were made including:
the Quorum arrangements;
rotation of Chair;
HR and OD issues to be raised;
anything affecting staff needs to be raised;
reporting arrangements which are part of Integrated Govenance;
ICG is Executive function;
need to include reference to all Staff Side e.g. GMB, RCN, AOT;
update management representatives, e.g. Michelle McGuigan;
Vice-Chair and secretary;
Deputies.
ACTION:Amend and recirculate as final draftST
7.2Local HR Framework
Vicki Taylor reported that a meeting would be set up to include two managers from each PCT and volunteers had been received at last staff briefing. During discussion it was agreed that the Group will work to an integrated HR framework process and report back to the ICG. Roger Nettleship and Ken Richardson confirmed their membership of the Group.
ACTION:Further dates for meetingsVT
7.3AFC
Sue Taylor circulated the proposal from the AfC Working Group which advised on the banding of the posts in the new management structures, with the local profiles based on a summary of national profiles. There was also a template for a job description for each post in the new structure.
Vicki Taylor informed members that this was a practical approach of how things would work in reality and it was hoped this could be signed off at the meeting on 11 January 2007 ready for the release of the new structures in February.
The following comments were made:
there was a different process for different grades;
Band 5 needs experience as well as qualifications;
Band 1 had no national profile;
Bands 8 were more difficult to pull together local profiles;
What were other PCTs doing;
a national view was waited from Staff Side;
It was therefore agreed that a pragmatic approach was required so that staff were not waiting longer than necessary and that the AfC Group would consider the comments and agree a way forward before the next ICG on 11 January 2007.
Karen Straughair clarified that there was a need to have a process which was the same for each grade, which was also a fair, consistent and smart approach. Karen invited Michelle McGuigan to explain how the process had worked at the Strategic Health Authority.
Michelle explained that the SHA had gone through a merger of organisations and there had been a loss of jobs. The main focus had been on job descriptions in the new structure, not directorates and the result was a type of matrix working. There were a number of generic job descriptions from Band 2 to Band 8a with only two specialist jobs in Finance. They would not be appropriate for a PCT however the content may be of some help. The SHA carried out a desktop evaluation of 12 job descriptions and all the posts met the criteria.
Karen Straughair pointed out that the same approach would be preferable however a different approach may be necessary, and advice should be sought from other PCTs.
Carolyn Taylor stated that she would personally only be comfortable if a desktop review was undertaken for all jobs.
Vicki Taylor informed members that it was not known how many jobs there would be and it had not yet been decided on what a desktop evaluation would consist of.
ACTION:Staff Side/Management Side meeting to discussST
Identification of a desktop review ST
Bring back to the meeting on 11 January 2007ST
- Managing Business Continuity
8.1Bank Update
Paul Docherty circulated the document and reported that the HR teams across the 3 PCTs had developed these guidelines for managers on how the Business Continuity Bank would operate. Paul invited comments by the end of December 2006.
During discussion it was noted that the existing banks would operate alongside this Bank. Staff Side had been informed six weeks ago at a previous meeting of the ICG when a document was circulated on the principles of the Bank. This further document was a managers guide and was a confirmation of the operational issues.
8.2Management of Fixed Term Contracts
Gill Lambert reported there were 5 staff in Gateshead on fixed term contracts which ended on 31 January 2007 and comments were invited from the Staff side.
Sue Talor reported there were 18 staff in Sunderland on fixed term contracts which ended on 31 January 2007 and Staff Side had been informed.
Paul Docherty reported there were 5 staff in South Tyneside on fixed term contracts which ended on 31 January 2007 and the information would be shared with Staff Side.
Sue Taylor confirmed that everyone seen would be offered the opportunity to go on the Bank.
8.3Locally identified issues and associated implications
This had been discussed earlier in the meeting concerning ‘clinical’ management posts.
- Newly Qualified Health Visitors Pay
Vicki Taylor reported that at the previous meeting it had been raised that Health Visitors across the three PCTs were being paid at different rates. However this raised the bigger issue of whether difference was an issue.
During discussion it was noted that if differences existed in pay, terms and conditions, this could impact on recruitment and retention. The three Chairs had also been discussing this as with three separate statutory bodies then perhaps difference be justified. However Karen Straughair pointed out that with 1 Integrated Management arrangement it would be difficult to justify differences and as the accountable officer she needed to be assured that there was fairness and accountability. Any problem areas would need to be identified and then worked through to ensure they were acknowledged, prioritised and transparent.
Differences were apparent across the three PCTs which were:
-protection
-lease cars
-newly qualified Health Visitors
Sue Taylor reported that the issue of different pay for Health Visitors had occurred due to different interpretation of ‘Point 5 on Band 6’, which had been agreed across the Strategic Health Authority. Each PCT was paying different points as some had counted transitional points on the scale.
Carolyn Taylor stated she was unaware of the SHA agreement and a local agreement had been made in South Tyneside.
ACTION:The issue be discussed in AfC Group and reported back ST
- ESR – Progress Update
Vicki Taylor reported that it was important to acknowledge the impending implementation of the Electronic Staff Record (ESR). There would be a lot of detailed work involved in ESR which was a National Project.
Gill Lambert explained that the 3 ESR leads in the PCTs would be going into the planning and testing phase from 29 January 2007 and that payroll would also be heavily involved. They had gone through the 101 process maps and these would be tested out.
Mark Ryan-Daly enquired about the encryption of data and how this was assured. Karen Straughair reiterated that this was a National Project however this would be put forward to the ESR leads.
ACTION:ESR leads to report back on encryption of data PD/GL/TD
Karen Straughair left the meeting
- Any Other business
Car Mileage rates
Steve Holmes reported that there was a query over rates of pay for regular and standard car mileage, e.g. when on training courses.
ACTION:Rates of pay on travel expenses ST/GL
Time Sheet
Chris Macklin reported that the National Fraud Agency had issued a new bank time-sheet and these were being implemented across the three PCTs. The main difference was the signatures required – individual, leader on shift and manager (3 in total).
ACTION:New time sheets be circulated to PCTsCM
- Date and Time of Next Meeting
Thursday 11 January 2007 10.15 am to 12.30 pm Wearmouth Room, Sunderland Teaching Primary Care Trust.
A further meeting was agreed for:
Wednesday 24 January 2007 in the afternoon, further details to follow.
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