ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION
GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION
Brisbane Magistrates Court
Level 4, 363 George Street,
Brisbane, QLD, 4000
On Monday, 21 September 2015 at 2.00pm
(Day 1)
CFMEU QLD - DOCUMENT DISPOSAL
Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC
Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC and
Mr M Elliott
Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 1
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1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton.
2
3 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. I call David Hanna.
4
5 <DAVID ARTHUR HANNA:
6
7 MR HANNA: The same again? We're still on the previous?
8
9 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want Mr Hanna to be sworn again?
10 I think if you are happy to accept that you are bound by
11 your former oath, it is not necessary for you to be
12 re-sworn, Mr Hanna.
13
14 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON:
15
16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Hanna, first of all, could you
17 please indicate to the Commission the structure of the
18 National Executive Committee as at this year, of the CFMEU?
19 A. This year? So which - the Construction Division or
20 the --
21
22 Q. Can we start generally, either/or, the National
23 Secretary?
24 A. Michael O'Connor.
25
26 Q. The National President?
27 A. Tony Maher.
28
29 Q. The Assistant National Secretary?
30 A. Mr Noonan.
31
32 Q. And the National Vice President?
33 A. I can't recall. We don't really refer to them as
34 their titles. Mainly, the main - the three amigos up the
35 top, we know their titles and everyone else they're just --
36
37 Q. Does it sound like it could be Michael Ravbar,
38 Leo Skourdoumbis and Andrew Vickers as the three National
39 Vice-Presidents?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. And the Assistant Divisional Secretary of the
43 Construction and General Division nationally, Brad Parker?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. And also Frank O'Grady?
47 A. Yes.
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 2 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1
2 Q. Were you the Divisional President Construction and
3 General Division?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Then other people on the National Executive Committee,
7 were they Brian Parker, or are they Brian Parker,
8 Mike Buchan, John Setka?
9 A. On which, on the Construction Division or on the
10 title?
11
12 Q. Construction and General Division.
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. So Brian Parker, Mike Buchan, John Setka?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. On the Mining and Energy Division, Wayne McAndrew,
19 Lorraine Asher?
20 A. No, no-one from the mining industry is on the
21 Construction --
22
23 Q. I am sorry, I am asking you now about the Mining and
24 Energy Division?
25 A. No idea.
26
27 Q. Can I ask you in relation to the Construction and
28 General Division at the National level.
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. -- were you the Divisional President?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. And is Dave Noonan the Divisional Secretary?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. And Frank O'Grady the Divisional Assistant Secretary?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. And Brian Parker, the Divisional Assistant Secretary?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. And then are there also the following people who are
44 called Divisional Trustees: Dean Hall, Rita Mallia and
45 Brian Parker?
46 A. Yes.
47
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 3 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 Q. And the Divisional Executive member, Michael Ravbar?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. John Setka and Mick Buchan?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. And Aaron Cartledge?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. And are there also additional Divisional Executive
11 Members from the Victoria/Tasmania Branch of Shaun Reardon
12 and Elias Spernovasilis?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. And from the Queensland Branch, Jade Ingham?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. The NSW Branch, Rita Mallia?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. And the Western Australia Branch, Joe McDonald?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. Thank you for that. Do you recall as at February last
25 year, 2014, the announcement of the
26 Royal Commission into --
27 A. No.
28
29 Q. No? Do you recall hearing that Terms of Reference had
30 been issued for the Royal Commission?
31 A. Yes, at some point.
32
33 Q. When can you --
34 A. At some point in '14; I don't know the month.
35
36 Q. Can you recall the CFMEU being issued with a notice to
37 produce within a few weeks of the Terms of Reference of the
38 Royal Commission being announced?
39 A. I don't know if it's in a few weeks or not, but I do
40 know we were issued at some point in April/May, possibly.
41
42 Q. At the time that you learnt it was issued, what was
43 your position?
44 A. President of the State Branch, Construction Branch,
45 and National President of the Construction Division.
46
47 Q. And Queensland was the relevant State Branch?
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 4 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. When you heard about the Terms of Reference, did you
4 or others within your Branch make any decision in relation
5 to any handling of documents?
6 A. No. I don't - the secretary runs the office and, you
7 know, runs the organisation, so I don't even recall seeing
8 or reading the document that you're talking about at the
9 time.
10
11 Q. That's the Terms of Reference I've just asked you
12 about.
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. How did you hear about the notice to produce?
16 A. I think it was reported at one of the Executives or,
17 you know, not through the process, through discussions, not
18 long after. It might have been in an email, I don't
19 recall.
20
21 Q. Can you recall, in fact, what day the notice to
22 produce was issued for the CFMEU?
23 A. No, I couldn't.
24
25 Q. Are you sure about that?
26 A. I'm very sure about that.
27
28 Q. You said April/May. You can't hone it down a bit?
29 A. No. April/May.
30
31 Q. Was anything done in relation to documents as a result
32 of the notice to produce in the Queensland office, to your
33 knowledge?
34 A. Not that I know of. I understand there was a lot that
35 the staff were organising to get sent down and most of it
36 was electronic, I believe.
37
38 Q. To your knowledge were any documents removed from the
39 offices of the CFMEU in Queensland?
40 A. In March --
41
42 Q. In March or April.
43 A. No, let me finish the answer. In March, on the back
44 of the BLF amalgamating with the CFMEU, there was - it's
45 like any marriage, coming together, you have two fridges
46 and two microwaves and a shitload of paperwork, and out of
47 that paperwork all the stuff from - all the stuff that
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 5 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 needed to be kept for tax reasons and other reasons from
2 the BLF went down to the store down at Yatala, to the
3 storage shed down there, and other stuff, the day-to-day
4 stuff, went over to the CFMEU office. At that time
5 the - Michael had a view there was a lot of stuff that he
6 hadn't realised that they'd been keeping for so long,
7 archive stuff, and at some point through March, there was
8 a lot of documents that were taken from the office which
9 were all old dusty archives, stuff that wasn't relevant or
10 to be used any more. That's --
11
12 Q. Where was it taken to?
13 A. Those documents, there was quite a lot of trailers,
14 two or three trailer loads, they went down to my place for
15 destroying and went into a shed. They were going to be
16 burnt because I've got a paddock where we could do that
17 safely and it was just too much, so there was a tip-truck
18 organised and we loaded it into a tipper and it went to the
19 tip.
20
21 Q. Who organised that?
22 A. Michael Ravbar.
23
24 Q. He organised it for these documents to go to your
25 place?
26 A. Michael identified the documents that he didn't
27 require any more as the Secretary and said they were to be
28 dumped or get to be destroyed of in an appropriate manner
29 so, you know, people's records, or whatever else - I don't
30 know what was in the documents but, you know, they needed
31 to be destroyed of, and so it was known that I had the
32 property and could facilitate that requirement.
33
34 Q. What company was the tip-truck from?
35 A. I don't recall. I don't know if it was a private
36 bloke or not. It was just a tipper.
37
38 Q. Who organised the tip-truck?
39 A. I believe I did.
40
41 Q. So you can't recall which company you rang?
42 A. No.
43
44 Q. Was it known to you, this company?
45 A. I can't recall.
46
47 Q. Did you get a receipt in relation to either the
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 6 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 tip-truck or taking it to the - was it to a dump, a tip?
2 A. I don't know if this guy got one or he sent one into
3 the office, I don't know, I can't recall that.
4
5 Q. You can't recall that?
6 A. No.
7
8 Q. Are you sure about that?
9 A. I'm very sure about that.
10
11 Q. Do you know whose name, if anyone's name, was put on
12 the receipt?
13 A. No.
14
15 Q. Are you sure about that?
16 A. Yeah, I'm sure about that.
17
18 Q. Do you know which tip it was taken to?
19 A. I think it was out Ipswich way.
20
21 Q. Who took it to the tip?
22 A. The truck driver.
23
24 Q. Did anyone go with the truck driver?
25 A. I think one of the training coordinators, I possibly
26 followed him, I might have went with him or followed him
27 out to make sure that it was disposed of appropriately.
28
29 Q. Possibly did or did?
30 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, it's a long time ago, but
31 there's a possibility - I think - as I said, I think; I'm
32 not 100 per cent sure.
33
34 Q. But it was coming from your place, wasn't it, this
35 tip-truck?
36 A. Yes, it was.
37
38 Q. Was it just the documents into the tip-truck or had
39 they been processed in some way before going into the
40 tip-truck?
41 A. When you say "processed" --
42
43 Q. You said there was some indication of whether they'd
44 be burnt?
45 A. They were just boxes and boxes of old archive stuff.
46
47 Q. Right.
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 7 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 A. I have no idea and it was just - so when you say
2 "processed", I don't know - processed?
3
4 Q. Did anything happen to make them easier to handle?
5 For example, were they shredded in any way or anything of
6 that nature?
7 A. No.
8
9 Q. When did they come to your house?
10 A. Oh, late March.
11
12 Q. Right. When did they get taken to the tip?
13 A. In the same week. In the same week because we put it
14 all in the hay shed and I had some hay coming on the
15 weekend for the cows, so it went before that weekend.
16
17 Q. Well, late March - 31 March was a Monday.
18 A. Yes.
19
20 Q. When you say "that week", do you mean that week?
21 A. It might have been the week before. All I know it was
22 late March.
23
24 Q. How do you know it was late March?
25 A. How do I know it was late March?
26
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. I just remember it being late March.
29
30 Q. How do you remember it being late March?
31 A. I just remember it being late March.
32
33 Q. Anything in particular that happened in late March to
34 make you remember that?
35 A. Well, it was getting close to the change of term.
36 I just remember it being late March.
37
38 Q. Do you mean the change of school term?
39 A. No.
40
41 Q. What term?
42 A. The term as in our Union fee term.
43
44 Q. When did the Union fee term --
45 A. It goes from October to March and then April
46 to September.
47
.21/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 8 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton)
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1 Q. So 31 March is the end of your Union fee term?
2 A. Yes, that week.
3
4 Q. What do you mean by "that week"? Do you mean it being
5 Monday, 31 March?
6 A. I don't know what day it fell on.
7
8 Q. Well, I'm asking you, you said "that week". I am
9 trying to work out what --
10 A. The last week of March is what I'm saying.