May November 2004 doc.: IEEE 802.11-04/6551113523xxxxxx431r0
IEEE P802.11
Wireless LANs
Minutes of Wireless Interworking with External Networks Study Group (WIEN SG) Meetings
Date:May 10-14November 16 - 1474, 2004
Contact:Cheng Hong
Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Pte Ltd
Blk 1022 Tai Seng Avenue
#06-3530
Tai Seng Ind Est - 534415
Singapore
Phone: +65 6550 5477
Fax: +65 6550 5459
e-Mail:
(Additional notes with help from Eleanor Hepworth, Siemens Roke Manor)
Abstract
Any reason why you’ve chosen to go landscape?
Minutes of WIEN SG meetings held during the IEEE 802 Interim Plenary meeting in Anaheim, CASan Antonio, Texas,from May 10-14November 15 - 1944, 2004, chaired by Stephen McCann, with Cheng Hong as the secretary..
Executive Summary
- Agenda of the WIEN SG session (04/1406r1)
- Report of last WIEN SG session (04/1112r1)
- Minutes of last WIEN SG session (04/1113r0)
- Minutes of ad hoc WIEN ID review session (04/1150r0)
- SSCAN presentation (04/1415r0)
- 3GPP2 presentation (04/1474r0)
- Interworking Architecture for WLAN presentation (04/1468r0)
- Soft QoS-based radio resource management for Interworking presentation (04/1411r0)
- Interworking implications on QoS realization (04/1408r0)
- Interworking requirements (04/1392r0)
- Introduction to the EAP netsel draft (04/1020r0)
- Roadmap discussion (04/1407r0)
4 motions raised in the SG session. AttendenceAttendance list is in the appendix.
1. Executive Summary:
Executive Summary needs updating
1. (04/688r1)Industry Update
2.Gigabit Ethernet presentations. Further study required.Technical Submissions:
Network Discovery
3GPP Requirements
Interworking Scenarios
Requirements for Network Selection
Access Router Identifiers
Access Point Architecture Issues. Working relationship with IETF CAPWAP is required.
3.Evolution. What is the future direction of IEEE 802.11 and where is it goingLiaison Issues to external standardizarion bodiesWireless Network Management presentation and motion to request that IEEE 802.11 WG Initial drafting of scope and purpose for PARform a Study Group. Motion approved.
5. Wake on WLAN presentation.Plans for Portland Meeting
Interworking presentations.
Afternoon Tuesday evening Session of WIEN SG: SptemberSeptemberNovember 16, Session of IEEE 802.11 WIEN SG, Thursday 13 May 2004, 4 – 6pm 1930 - 2130
11. Logistics
WIEN Meeting called to order by Stephen McCann (Chair) at 4.05pm1930.
Agenda was reviewed (04/472r21406r1) and it was agreed to switch the order of two presentations.approved.
The IEEE 802 & IEEE 802.11 Policies and Rules were reviewed.
Patents and By-laws read out by the chair, together with licensing terms and associated conditions.
There are 2 sessions this time, both on Thursday 13th May 2004.
23. Background (634r0Report from last meeting and Teleconference)
The Stephen McCann (cChair ) gave a short presentation about some of the background to the creation of this stuadystudy group.
an overview of the last meeting outcome (04/1112r1).
Minutes of the last meeting 04/1113r0 is reviewed and approved.
Minutes of the ad hoc session in last meeting from August 11th 2004 04/1150r0 is reviewed and approved.
Questions
* Jon Edney: What is the low rate beacon issue?
* Chair: To be explained by Bernard's presentation.
* Floor: What is the ARID?
* Chair: The Access Router ID
* David Colin Lanzl: Is this the SSID related to CAPWAP issues in 802.11?
* Chair: It is related, and a later presentation will mention it.
+ Floor shows sufficient interest on the backgroundup info. Chair will present some greater detail at next meeting in Portland
34. Network Selection (638r0): Bernard AbobaGeneral review of the current PAR and 5Criteria
The Stephen McCann (cChair ) gave ana general overview of the PAR (04/506r9) and 5Criteria (04/507r3).
Some comments were received from IEEE802.21 on the PAR document. The chair suggests address those comments.
* suggestSuggest dropping the “wireless” from the name “Wireless Interworking with External Network”
* suggestSuggest inserting “ongoing formal” into the section 16 notes.
Question: What happens if the group rejects those comments?
Stephen (Chair): They will be raised again in the ExCom meeting.
Comment: Those comments from IEEE 802.21 have not been voted in their group.
- Motion: In order to clarify the efforts of the new Task Group and align those efforts with 802.21 WG WG, the title of the document, item 4 of the PAR changed to "Amendment to Standard [for] Information Technology - Telecommunications and information exchange between systems - Local and Metropolitan networks - specific requreiemntsrequirements - Part 11: Wireless LAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical layer (PHY) specifications: IEEE 802.11 Interworking with External Networks"
Moved: Stephen McCann
Second: Charles Wright
Result: 11-1-14 (for-against-abstain)): Approved
McCannIEEE 802IEEE 802.
- Motion: 802.21 WG feels that the following change would help to address tehthe similar scope in relation to 802.11 WIEN PAR It is therefore moved to chagnechange the final paragraph of section 16 of the PAR from:
”it is worth noting that an agreement has been made between IEEE 802.21 and IEEE 802.11 WIEN SG to co-ordinate in avoiding any overlap in their scopes" to
“It is worth noting that an agreement has been made between IEEE 802.21 and IEEE 802.11 WIEN SG for an ongoing formal co-ordination in order to avoid any overlap in their scopes”
Moved: Stephen McCann
Second: David Hunter
Result: 11-0-16 (for-against-abstain)): Approved
Question: Does it mean that liaison needs to be set up between the group and IEEE 802.21?
Stephen (Chair): Could be. But not addressed here.
* Access network discovery is not yet chartered in IETF others are already covered
* 802.1ab, 802.1af would not be implementatedimplemented by AP.
+ Chair: Why?
+ Bernard Aboba: It is created by the wired side, and it may not apply to the wireless side
* Virtual AP is to have one AP to advertise different SSID to act as different APs
+ List of requirements (in the slide)
+ 1999 standards does not specify the issue, e.g. multiple SSID
+ scalability of the virtual AP is an issue (e.g. 30% bandwidth overhead with 10 virtual APs) due to the use of beacons taking the transmission time
+ Floor: Is this feasible with the 802.11 guidlinesguidelines?
+ Bernard Aboba: It is. It is just using the beacon.
+ Floor: Potentially got benefits, since it is central cordinatedcoordinated
+ DJ Johnson: The use of virtual AP contradicts with the discovery problem statementis not the way I would tackle the network selection issue
* Chair: Do you feel that WIEN SG is the good place to fix the discovery problem/beacon scalability?
* Bernard Aboba: There is something to be done even if other solutions issolutions are available.
* Floor: Is it possible to do with probe?
* Bernard Aboba: Will be slow. And would not scale if the user number is very large.
* Floor: There are other possible solutions with the change to the stations.
* Chair: What is the PKIX?
* BenardBernard Aboba: It is the public key infrastructure group within the IETF.
* Floor: Why is the IETF solution to problem 3 (within the presentation) (…?what is problem 3?) a short term solution?
* Bernard Aboba: It is already started, and would not require too much change.
45. 3GPP requriementsrequirements (626r0) Andrew MylersPresentation on SCCAN (04/1415r0) Mahalingam Mani [Check Name]
DemelDoes the only 3GPP also 3GPP Rommer3GPP 3GPP Does thatwhatliaison (LS)have saidit officerKruysMA (Unlicensed Mobile Access)MAisMAre-uses GSM mobility solutions.liaison StanleyMAa sMAs
* All the liaisons mentioned in the slides have the links provided
* Floor: Is it within the scope to recommend back to the 3GPP any changes to comformconform to
certain thing?
* Andrew Myers: Could establish liaison with 3GPP to ask for change.
* Floor: Should be WG instead of SG to send liaison, and SG has limited life time. Could wait
for the group becoming a TG to do the liaison.
* Chair: To collect summary of the issues, and review them to generalize the scope information.
* Floor: Could collect the issues, and ask the chair to establish an ad hoc group to address them.
InforamtionInformation about the SCCAN forum is given.
56. Presentation on 3GPP2 interworking activities (04/1474r0) Jim Tomick
Stephen (Chair): Is the document of the 3GPP2 interworking in public domain?
Jim: Needs to check. It should be open to public to access.
Action point: Jim will check the availability of the document.
IEEE 802.volunteers to iaison It will eIEEE 67. Presentation on Interworking Architecture for WLAN (04/1468r0) Yeong Min Jang
Question: We are talking about multi-mode in this group or IEEE 802.21
Answer: Yes.
Question: What is the impact of this to WLAN?
Answer: This is the background introduction, and next presentation will be on the radio resource management. It will be explained.
7. Presentation on Soft QoS-based Radio Resource Management for Interworking (04/1411r0) Yeong Min Jang
Stephen (Chair): What should SG do with the contributions? Is there any requirement that we can derive from it?
Yeong: For support QoS, needs to have triggers from MAC, and need Layer 2.5 for handover, Soft QoS could be applied there.
8. Presentation on Interworking implications on QoS realization (04/1408r0) Eleanor Hepworth
Question: If someone wants to increase their QoS, they need to do the authorisationauthorization
Eleanor: Yes, that is to differentiate users
Comment: There is some overlapping with TGr issues.
Comment: It may need to be done in 3GPP/2, IETF
Comment: RADIUS-QoS, or COPS could be used or made used of for the purpose.
Comment: We have lots protocols in hand, and we need to make use of them. A requirement is useful
Comment: LS with 3GPP/2 should be useful.
Stephen (Chair): We need to LS with 3GPP/2. And maybe should have a joint meeting with TGr.
9. Presentation on Interworking requirements (04/1392r0) Hong Cheng
Question: in this scenario do you include sharing policy, e.g. one operator 75% one 25% or just thinking in terms of traffic separateionseparation?
Hong: in this scenario, just in terms of traffic separation, but same problem applies to more complicated policy cases.
Question: effects type mechanism need to introduce into 802.11
Hong: so far from the requirements from 3G networks only see that separation is necessary, for more detailed policy enforcement there will be some separate requirements.
etwork ccess dentifier (NAI)nesdaynternet raft(I-D) an document solutioncIEEE 802But we could also a levelIEEE .,
Wednesday Morning Session 17th Nov 2004, 0800 - 1000
10. The SG went to ad hoc mode for the first hour of the session (08:00 – 09:00) to the review of an IETF internet draft
- Presentation of IETF Network Discovery and Selection Overview (04/1020r0) Stephen McCann (Chair)
Comment: They are working at L3
Stephen (chair): They are only defining problemesproblems.
-- Bernard Aboba & Jari Arkko's presentation for IETF is presented. Note: This document was subsequently uploaded to the server as document (04/1502r0) with permission from both authors.
-Mike Moreton assisted with the generation of some draft text for the liaison letter.
At 09:06 the WIEN SG reconvened
Text from the ad-hoc session was then presented to be included Some text was suggested infor a liaison letter to be sent to the IETF regarding the internet draft as shown in document 11-04-1500-00-wien-input-to-ietf-from-wien-ad-hoc-november-2004.
The Chair will bring a revised version of the text to the closing plenary for approval
- Motion: Move to authoriseauthorize the WIEN SG chair to draft a liaison letter to the IETF and forward this letter to the IEEE 802.11 working group, said letter to inlcudeinclude the following issues:
* scopeScope of further work and division of problems between IETF and IEEE 802.11
* Specific pre-association information
* beaconBeacon issues
Mover: Mike Moreton
Second: Dorothy Stanley
Result: 22-0-1 (for-against-abstain)): Approved
11. Next Step for the WIEN SG
- Motion: Move to request that the IEEE802.11 Working Group extend the (WIEN) Study Group for another 6 months.for another 6 month
Moved: Stephen McCcann
Second: Mike Moreton
Result: 24-0-0 (for-against-abstain)): Approved
12. Roadmap discussion: (1407r0) Stephen McCann
More info on 3GPP2 will be given in January 2005.
Question: What is the policy, is that general or something specific to be documented here?
Comment: There are different types, not sure what poeplepeople are looking at
Comment: Think the text is not referring to an exact one. Just general point
Stephen (chair): Need to figure out that in the IEEE 802.11u.
Question: Why the text is there in the PAR?
Stephen (chair): Last meeting, people feel that we need those extra info to explain the scope.
Question: This group has many bits of problems, not like other group that has a very speicificspecific problem, will it have a CFP?
Stephen (chair): We can craft the CFP for proposals for different bits.
Comment: Should list IEEE 802.21 in the external groups
Stephen (chair): Yes. Should have LS to IEEE 802.21 at some future point.
Comment: Regarding the IEEE 802.11i co-existence should also put TGr co-existence there.
Stephen (chair): Maybe the ADS SG should also be included.
The document is updated to 04/1407r1
67. WLAN Interworking scenarios (617r0) Cheng Hong
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* Floor: Please point out which points (on slide 2) are in scope of this group
* Hong Cheng: Points 1, 4, 5, 6, 12 would not be in the scope. The rest are in.
* Floor: Is this group aiming at multi mode terminal?
* Chair: No. This groups is pretty much concentrating aton the 802.11 terminal.
* Floor: Mappoing QoS is 802.21 scope
* Hong Cheng: The group would be working on the specific issue relates to 802.11. We will also support the
out come from 802.21
* DJ Johnson: Will security be just the issue of support for EAP?
* Hong Cheng: It is more than that. EAP could be left to upper layer, but the mangingmanaging of keys, etc would be
802.11 specific, and the group should be looking on that aspect.
* Floor: This week in one FR meeting, the scpope of BSS transition issues iswere discussed. Handover Wwithin the same ESS would be
studied in 802.11r, handover inter- ESS would be covered in 802 .21,. Is handover to cellular networks within the scope of WIEN? or not.
* Chair: This is an Oongoing issue -– we have discussed this with 802.211, and we are still defining our scope at the momentwe have not defined scope yet. we have to define our own scoep of work.
wWe should address specific issues that impact 802.11,1, and we have to be careful about the generic issues which areis
dealt with in 802.21. Initial work is just restricted to 802.11 aspects.
* DJ Johnson: the discussions in 802.21 whathow to model interworking in terms of the stack have lead to an interesting conclusion thatbuild up lead us down direction if interesting
there is a possibility to leave some areas undefined that are left up to the implementorimplementerthat the thnigs we leave underfied would be thinkingleave upto implementor.. What determines loose
or tight coiupling is that exact self same thing, there are a bunch interfaces proimitives, and 802stuff .11 should work on loacal scope aspects.
to first in 802.21. Scope issue a lot vcelarerclearer in mind than was befroebefore.
* Chair: An Eexample of this are the is beacon issues -– this is a 802.11 specific issue that we need to address. network with which to interwork trying
to come up with some support from .11
* Chair: what do you feel this groups relationship should be with 3GPP?
how do you feel we can deal with these questions, list reqs, what next steps?
* Hong Cheng - as this group stilllstill SG think liaison has to go via WG, it would be good to allow 3GPP know we have interest here,
adnd we're working on this isseue, so we can get information from them. What do they think the issues are that we should tackle?.
* Jon Edney: not enough information so he'll just abstain, maybe shouldbe letter from the chair instead.
* Chair: Perhaps an initial simple liaison from the WG from nowe - and later on, a more technical liaison.
Straw poll:
To send informational LS to 3GPP just to inform them of the existanceexistence of the SG?
For : 23
Against : 0
Abstain : 4
Chair to go to the Working Group chair to ask him about advice regarding the creation of a liaison.
7. Requirements for Network Selection (479r0) Eleanor Hepworth
* Andrew Myers: Is this addressed by wireless broadband alliance, or other SDO?
* Eleanor Hepworth: Those will not change the 802.11 spec. We want a standardized way of doing that.
* Bernard Aboba: Also have the similar discussion in 802.11r. Conclusion is that current Beacon is not enough for basic mobility.
For this kind of compliatedcomplicated scenario, needs even more work.
* DJ Johnson: It is something 802.21 also works on. Eleanor Hepworth mewntioned Ttwo possiblitiespossibilities, pre-association, and post-authenticationssociation. With the
Ppost-authenticationssociation approach, there are much wider choices of solutions. Issues are how you get it, whether you could trust it.
The information itself would not change, but 802.21 would require individual technologies to figure out how to transport the information
* Bernard Aboba: Within the same domain, (802.11k) site report could work. But here, it is different, since there is different
assumption, the AP could be of different technology.
8. Access Router Identifier - ARID (504r0) Chair presented on the behalf of Daniel Park
* DJ Johnson: Why the information of the Domain ID should be transmitted in a 802.11 management frame?
* Chair: Is this to be work in this scope or in 802 .21?
* DJ Johnson: Yes. Solution could be sort out, but this work is in the scope of this group. And it is a 802.11 management frame issue,
and a proper topic for this group.
Evening Session of IEEE 802.11 WIEN SG, Thursday 13 May 2004, 7.30pm – 9.30pm
09. Liaison Issuesdecisionanor HepworthIEEE 802.11IEEE 802lanorAccess
1 Kruys McCannIEEE 802.IEEE 802.IEEE 802IEEE HongIEEE 802.interfacesIEEE 802.IEEE 802.anor IEEE 802 Hunterthe , the wording adocumentIEEE 802eliaisonIEEE 802:* There is a need to have liaison officer for 3GPP, before a technical liaison can be sent to them. However the WG chair can send one himself, at this own discretion.
* There was a call for liaison officiersofficers. This will be discussed within the WG.
2attendance IEEE 802attendance Hunter McCannscope of the study group (SG).IEEE 802.11IEEE 802.11still the IEEE 802.11 working groupti.i A McCann Rommer Hongconsistent6open arecharacteristicsscalabilityanor anorexistencehowever, solutionJan: the04/3
The Meeting adjourned till next meeting in January 2005ember 2004..
______
Appendix:
AttendenceAttendance list:
Stephen
Soohong Daniel
Andrew Myers
Cheng
Eleanor
Thomas
Bo
Fujio
Yasuhiko