Interview of Tilly and Joe Autry

Interview of Tilly and Joe Autry

by Frances Kick

Francis: This is Frances Kick interviewing Tilly and Joe Autry at their home in North La Junta, Co on July 20, 1978. Okay, there we go. It was supposed to be June 20, 1978.

Francis: Well, Joe, I wanted to ask you about a, the rooster races, the guio races that we talked about, um, where were they held?

Joe: Yea, they were held it at the Higby school house.

Francis: Right at the school house?

Joe: Well, pretty close might have been closer to the road some of it might of been west of the school house might have been east of the school house but it, it was right in that vicinity within an acre there.

Ah, the first that we remember about going was in the ah um in the 20's I’d say about 1924 and, ah, altogether it got a big crowd it was on the 25th of they, always held it on the 25th of July.

Francis: Why the 25th of July? Were they celebrating something in particular?

Joe: Yeah, they were celebrating the, ah, they said that they started it in Spain, this whole ra-, that rooster race, and many a the fellow would ride they would bury the chicken with just his head a sticking out and then ah the fellows would run by and lean over from their horses with their horse a running and try to get ‘em see. And the one that got him, why that he was going to use it.

Francis: Now what, they just pull their heads off?

Joe: Na they pulled the body out

Francis: Pulled, pulled the whole —

Joe: Yeah, he was sticking out he was just down in there so he couldn't get out and the head was sticking up maybe that far so maybe 6 or 8 inches or a foot and they'd get a hold of them and just pull them out. And then, then he was headed, then they'd go ahead and bury another one see and ah they'd probably have in an evening like that. Of course, there’d be so many other things going on that they would in the evening. They'd probably use 5 or 6 roosters and ya know then they’d have a big dance at night and ah they’d dance the old mexican cadrills where Tilly's Uncle called.

Jim Richards, that’s Tommy's Dad, he called and they don't ah they dancing a lot different then they do a in the English Cadrill its called different and the music is different to but it is it look–but I don't think they held very many of them after a say 1930. Well, most all the Spanish people moved away from the plaza of the last time there was maybe two or three families lived there but most of them had moved used to be 25 or 30 families of Spanish people lived each way from the plaza of the well from a mile to five miles, so maybe more, and they all went to school there.

They had alot more kids in the Plaza school than they ever had at Higby, they did. When I went to Higby they had eight, and the Plaza, at the same time, had 36 so you know how many times difference there was.

Francis: Is that the same as San Joseville?

Joe: Yes, same old thing.

Francis: And–

Joe: –used to be a lot of people lived there.

Francis: Was it called Plaza after it was San Joseville?

Joe: It was called Plaza, yeah, afterwards, afterwards.

Francis: Were there ever any other names for for that community?

Joe: Nine Mile Bottom.

Francis: Right up there by –

Joe: Nine Mile Bottom?

Francis: Right by, right by the dam.

Joe: Yeah, uh huh, right bellow the dam it was they each one of them places had a water right and a little piece of grass and where they could have their garden some chili, raise chili and all kinds of vegetables. And they could, the cattle and horses could have a place to live on the hill side where they could go up and come back down to the house each one of them. It ended on the flat of San Joseville, there's about a maybe 160 acres that’s laid out in that town and each one of them had a piece of the ditch and a piece of grass and all for their house and everything. And then had a place for the horses and cattle they had goats and sheep and stuff too–

Francis: And yet their houses weren't scattered out? They all lived right next to each other–

Joe: They all lived in kind of this here was plotted out so that it crossed the ditch see each one of the crossed the ditch so they could take some water out of the ditch and, um, they had plums and all kinds of prunes. Lets see, they had apple trees and, and plum trees and grapes and elder berries and all choke cherries and stuff like that that they grew and of course people still managed their gardens.

Francis: Um, they used to bring the water out of the river down, down the ditch, and then run it down their cistern…

Joe: Right at the last, see the last or each, each house had a filter and a little ditch that run to the cistern, a big cistern, and the houses all had dirt roofs so you couldn't drain the water off the roof so they'd run this water when a flood would come down the river it would be rain water that would be rain water mostly and a right at the last when the water got kind of clear like I mean when it would be quite clear they'd run it in the cistern let it settle see and then they used it they used it for everything they used it to cook beans and a to a wash clothes, and a everything cause a most of them didn't have a well. The wells, they could get a well, but it would real hard, hard chipy water and they didn't like it they liked soft water and even the houses where my folks lived at first when they ah, let’s see, we first move to Higby in 1916 and they each one all the houses had a cistern where you'd run the water but lower they made them houses and put a cobb, a tin roof on ‘em with gutters and everything and run the water off the roof into the cistern and then they quit that used in the dish water but that was what they done first.

Francis: So they probably had, um, had this water system from the time that the ditch was built?

Joe: Well, when daddy, when Tilly's granddaddy came in say 1865 they was already using them then–

Francis: Oh, is that right from water under the ditch–

Joe: Yeah, in 1865.

Francis: Okay. Water out the purgatory?

Joe: Well yeah, that little ol’ ditch was built, I ah Mr. Willson, W. H. Wilson who was a wagon driver for the JJ’s. He lived where Bill Zimmerman lives now and he said that he helped when they were was staking the ditch out and if they they'd just plow it and have some water come in behind them and when ever the water wouldn't go, they would lower it and they would lower it see, that’s how they knew where the grade was see.

If it was too high the water would break across see then they would come and go a little bit lower and up there by the cemetery above Jim Harrons old place where the Parrishes live now well that ditch was supposed to come around the way the road comes but it wouldn't come see there was a high place there and they'd have to of made a big cut there so they took it right below the fence and come around that’s where its got a big its got a big fall in it there to it comes across the road there by the old Higby school house and it has a big fall that falls about ten or twelve feet see and that’s the reason but they was originally they was going to come around that hill but they didn't it was too high so they it was very long when they first built it see it was about a and I think ah, from what we ah, well now, well you see there two dams there was two dams at one time Tilly's granddad had a dam below the JJ Ranch and then the dam that they use now was the one that the JJ Ranch used so Tilly's granddad used a the old dam still there and the river lifted so –

Francis: So what was your grandfather's name–Tilly?

Joe: Billy.

Francis: Billy Richards. Billy Richards.

Joe: Billy Richards.

Francis: Well now, um was there a– when he came to, um, Higby in 1865 were there already people living there?

Joe: Yeah, there were several Mexican families besides the Nelsons and Carbons and a lets see who else Good Pastures and a and Higbys, or Higby. See Higby was named after Jonny Good Pasture's Uncle who was named Riley Higby. That’s who Higby was named after, but ah the things that I from 1912 back why most of it just be hearsay anymore cause I, I hear Ed Warren and all like Jack Cartey and Ed Warren and all the Old Timers in Primo and all them talk. And I just remembered but ah the things before 1912, why they had built a bridge across The Higby across the Picketwire in 1980 and just stayed 10 days and then it washed out so and then there wasn't no bridge there till 1950 they built another one in 1950.

Francis: Were any stories about, um, when and how come people had first come to the to the Purgatory Valley?

Joe: Well they said that the Jones, the ones that owned the JJ Ranch they had heard, when they came to Las Animas, they had first lived in Las Animas and, and a they heard about the valley and that’s when they came and they even brought some people with them and filed and they could each one file on a 160 see then and they came and filed and, of course, that’s about that when ever probably about that time is about the time that Tilly's granddad came too cause he filed down at the mouth of that canyon. See they had two different places where they lived in 1908 they said the river come up and melted the house it was an adobe house it come all over the whole bottom and then they moved back to the hill see they moved back to the hill and rebuilt again but they built it out of rock that time and that was to be that would of been 1908. See that would have been before, of course, John the last one that was born of her uncles and aunts was born in 19– in 1895, 1895 and the last one of 11 kids just died last year. Dave he was 92. So that was the last one the last one of Richards.

Francis: Well, lets go back to the guio race again. Um, how many had that celebration on July 25th? Were they celebrating anything special that you knew about or was–

Joe: Darned if I know, only thing it was guio day and they wouldn't celebrate it on the 4th of July I but–

Francis: Well that was a Spanish it was a um [unintelligble] it was a festive day, that was one of their one of their big days.

Joe: And it seemed like well it didn't matter which day of the week it came on but it was the 25th.

Francis: Now I read here a while back about there was a write up in one of the Pueblo papers about Guio day, is that right?

Joe: Well god, you ought to have saved it.

Francis: It told, it told what it, um, why and what they did and it showed a picture–

Joe: Do you remember seeing that piece?

Francis: I don't, I didn't see it.

Joe: Do you remember seeing the piece about the penitents in the Denver Post?

Francis: Yeah, yeah, I missed that.

Joe: Well, it would have been a piece like that.

Francis: Well now, did they give any prizes for the winners?

Joe: Oh yeah, they had prizes. I don't know what all they, of course, the rooster was a prize but a then they had all kinds they had some short races too, horse races and a foot races and different things like that and, of course, about the time the sun went down why they was having a dance you know they danced till I know they danced after midnight but I mean how late but a I know there used to be so many oh there were so many people mixed all kinds everybody, everybody came.

Francis: Did it come, did it go on all day? Did they start in the morning and then–?

Joe: It started in the morning about 10, started in the morning about 10 and then they'd have lunch they always had a picnic lunch-

Francis: At the school house?

Joe: Yeah.

Francis: Everybody comes.

Joe: And they would, just like you do here, everybody would bring something you know and yeah, oh yeah, they had a they had a big, it was a great celebration. Them people came from miles I don't know i heard some body say one time a who told me now that some people come from the Joe bush place do you know where it is?

Francis: No, I don't.

Joe: Well, it is south of Stella's. You know where Stella Harington is?

Francis: Yes.

Joe: Well, it is south of there about 20 miles.

Francis: So that would be like–

Joe: And in them days–

Francis: That would be 30 miles–

Joe: Forty miles.

Francis: Forty miles away–

Joe: Forty miles from the plaza but there used to be a main road that came from the Joe Bush place, the one I'm talking about right down the ridge and came off into Guadamen canyon and crossed the river at the Plaza see–

Francis: So it didn't come down Smith canyon then?

Joe: No, no. It come right down the ridge there’s a ridge between, well, it comes there’s a good road, I mean a good wagon road, that came right down by the 8 Mile school house and came up the Clark hill and came right on down into Guadamen Canyon. That is the first canyon south of the dam, no east of the dam, east of the dam, that’s Gaudamen and came into there and that road was used, used lots.

I remember, oh, I don't how early let’s see where was I, at I worked for Wilsons. I worked for Wilsons in the 20s and they still used that road I know they brought Joe Bush down that when we buried him down here and he was an old JJ cow puncher he was. He had worked for them forever and they, this place up there on the hill, they still call it the Joe bush grave–

Francis: Was it on Guio day did they have cock fights?

Joe: No sir, I don't remember about any rooster fights. No sir, I don't I, I don't know what them the roosters that I remember was either Domineckers or Rodonreds or something like that still a big chicken there wasn't white chickens but a you know what a Dominecker is? Thats an old Barred Rock, I mean an old time Barred Rock. You know what a Barred Rock is?

Francis: A big–

Joe: Barred rock is a great grey and white, you know kind of mutly chicken but a Barred Rock, err, a Dominecker is a old time old time Barred Rock.