Minutes of the Meeting held on 12th January, 2007

at Committee Room, Y Gwalia Building, Radnor Council Offices, Llandrindod Wells at 10.00 am

  1. Present
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Brenda Hulbert - Blaenau Gwent
Andy Sharp - Cardiff
Carol O’Byrne - Cardiff
Judith Morgans - Caerphilly
Jane Ruel - Carmarthenshire
Clare O’Gorman – Denbighshire
Ian Maclaren - Flintshire
David Turner - Newport
Caroline Hadley – Caerphilly
Ian MacLaren – Flintshire
Katherine Lloyd – Denbighshire
Carol Kuhlmann – Ceredigion
John Williams – Conwy /
Annette Evans - Monmouthshire
Donna Bruce - Monmouthshire
Joy Hughes - Pembrokeshire
Ronnie Cleland - Neath Port Talbot
Jayne Thomas - Rhondda Cynon Taff
Lynne Wintle - Rhondda Cynon Taff
Sandra Beveridge - Swansea
Mark Saunders – Torfaen
Fay Howe – Powys
Jonathan Newland - Powys
  1. Apologies
/ Nia Pritchard Griffith – Gwynedd
Rhos Woods – Bridgend
Gareth Llwyd - Anglesey
Bernadette Jenkins - Merthyr / Sue Ridings - Flintshire
Gareth Richards - Merthyr Tydfil
Jane Roberts - Wrexham
Jennifer Donovan – Swansea
Sue John-Evans

Action By

Estimated finish time of the meeting today - 3.00pm

Minute taker for the meeting today

Judith Morgans - Caerphilly /

JM

Discussion regarding Stage 3 Process

JH welcomed Jonathan Isaccs, WAG, Jonathan Corbett, SSIW and Eileen Habbijam, Secretariat, to the meeting and outlined the expectations for the session. JH outlined the aim of the meeting - to consider the concerns which had been raised with WAG regarding the stage 3 process. Some issues had already been responded to by IH and may not need further consideration. JI felt that to address each point could take considerable time and that the aim should be to reach an understanding on the way forward. Members of AWCOG felt that the points they had highlighted needed a response in order to move forward positively.
Responses were offered by JI and JC on the range of concerns and the following points are a summary of their responses and the general points raised during the discussion:
Point 1:
  • Issues such as this need to be addressed with the Chair at the time of the Panel.
  • New matters should not be included on the day of the Panel, however, if the Panel believe that they are pertinent they should discuss this and decide on their response
  • The Panel have the power to call for a fresh stage 2 investigation if they believe that the first investigation was not of a sufficiently good standard.
Point 2:
  • It is not appropriate for Panel Chairs to request changes to stage 2 reports which affect decision made therein.
  • Additional guidance may need to be given to Panels to enable them to understand their remit
  • Panels need to be made aware that they can seek legal advice and guidance where necessary

Point 3

  • The Chair has the discretion to interview whoever they think appropriate to the case. The L/A needs to ensure that those Officers called have the information they need to respond to the Panel.
  • The Chair could suspend a Panel in order to call other Officers should those invited not have the relevant information.
  • Recommendations need to be achievable and specific. The role of the expert member is to advise the Chair on these areas.
  • It is not appropriate for Authorities to receive draft reports to check for accuracy.
  • It is not felt to be appropriate for stage 3 reports to be sent to L/A’s in draft from. All stage 3 reports are seen by SSIW. WAG will review Recommendations made by Panels
  • Recommendations made by panels are not legally binding, they are just recommendations.
  • Every report from April 2006 will be reviewed in 6 months time to see that there has been progression throughout the year.
  • JI reads every report and agrees that quality is variable however feels that the Panels are lay people and therefore this is to be expected.
  • JC highlighted concerns at the quality of some stage 1 responses sent by L/A’s.
  • Members highlighted the need for WAG to acknowledge that some complainants are Persistent and Vexatious complainants and that every stage 3 should not be seen as a failure of the L/A - this was acknowledged by JI/JC.
  • Clarification on stage 3 details should be sought at the beginning of the process by Secretariat. If new issues are injected from those set out at stage 2 then consideration should be given to these by the Investigating officer and Complaints Officer.
  • Questioning of officers at Panels should not be formal and needs to be appropriate.
  • L/A’s should have the opportunity to give feedback on inappropriate behaviour by Panel members.
  • Panel members should not defer solely to complainants and need to maintain and objective view.
Point 4
  • Panels should not take complainants to lunch.
  • Panels may meet complainants alone before the Panel begins but should only use this time to put Complainants at their ease and explain the process. They should not discuss the complaint at this time.
  • It is expected that attendees at Panels should include the Complainant, Independent Investigating Officer, Representative from L/A and Independent Person, however, others can be called where necessary. Group members agreed with this but explained that this is not always the case.
Point 5
  • Complainants and L/A should all be sent the same information packs.
  • Stage 2 reports should be the only information needed, however, the paucity of some stage 2 info makes it necessary to request further info.
  • L/A’s need to be clear that information is shared and if info such as client files are requested then it may be necessary to redact third party information.
  • Panels cannot work outside of the usual rules governing confidentiality and so L/A’s need to be clear with Panels which info should not be shared.
  • L/A’s need to be clear that any info which goes to the Secretariat may in future be requested by complainants via Data Protection Policy.
  • WAG officers were unable to confirm whether requests for client files by Panel Chairs are appropriate
Point 6
recommendations made by panels
  • Recommendations are just that and are not legally binding
  • The role of the expert member is to inform the panel on what is possible/practical and to consider what is achievable
  • If the expert member has concerns about Panel process they need to raise these formally in writing with WAG
  • Panels may need to seek advice and guidance if they are unsure – need for a review of available resources
costs to the L/A
  • Chairs should not be meeting IO’s prior to the Panel – need to inform Chairs
Conduct of panel members
  • WAG Officers feel that it is appropriate for the Chair to ask the complainant how they wish to be addressed, e.g. first name etc.
  • Panel members are recruited on the understanding that they have the necessary people/social skills
  • The Secretariat do not take a monitoring role with regard to Panels
  • Feedback can be given via the questionnaires which the Secretariat send following panels – some L/A’s have not received these – IH to ensure this is done following every Panel
  • AWCOG members highlighted that the concerns they are raising are shared by Directors/ expert members/heads of Service – WAG Officers unable to identify that they have this information from any other quarter and suggested that L/A’s need to improve their stage 1 processes
  • WAG will consider consultation with Panels members
  • WAG to consider training for Panel members – could include case scenarios etc
  • Reps from AWCOG could meet with panel reps to discuss these issues further – WAG to facilitate this asap
Housekeeping
  • IH agreed that the timescale for collation and distribution of paperwork re stage 3 is not reasonable and commended members on the speed at which this is being achieved
  • All parties agreed that if case files are requested there will be issues with possible redaction of third party information – IH agreed that this may affect timescales and that this would be viewed as a reasonable delay. In these cases the L/A would need to keep Secretariat informed of the process
  • IH agreed that Secretariat may not have been flexible re diary dates for Panels and will be paying more attention to this area
  • Secretariat will note reasons for delays in audit trails
  • Panels should not take complainants for lunch and have been advised of this.
  • In Consultation sessions Collin Vivian stated that L/A buildings would be used for Panels – this is not stated in the Regs and many complainants will not agree to this
  • Secretariat will look at the list of venues provided by AWCOG members and inform them if any further info is needed
  • Secretariat will ensure that local arrangements for lunch are clearly stated in paperwork ahead of Panels
  • Need to consider how many rooms are needed – old stage 3’s had three rooms
  • AWCOG expressed their thanks to IH for her support and advice over the last year and asked her to pass the same to Hayley Johnson and Rhian Spencer
  • IH asked all members to make suggestions when they identified areas for improvement
  • Members requested more frequent meetings with IH and all agreed that this would be more productive way forward – invitations to be sent to IH for future meetings
/
JI

L/A

JI
JI
IH
JI/JC
JI/JC
IH
IH
IH
IH
IH
ALL
JH

Minutes of the meeting for 19th October 2005

Read and agreed as a true record

Matters arising from the Minutes

Meeting with Ombudsman – JI has suggested that WAG need to meet with Ombudsman prior to AWCOG meeting – members were asked if they had any contact within that office – Elizabeth Thomas identified – need to contact /

JH

Update on Website

Kevin working very hard on this and has met with Andrew Bell to identify registered users. Advice given to those already registered on how to log on – user name is members actual name in lower case – no spaces. AB has created permissions for all registered. Any problems should be directed straight to AB – contact tel. no. on a previous email to members from JH. Discussion forum almost complete – discussion around what pages members wanted to see – decided on Children’s issues/Adult issues/Training/Complaints Process/Other. Links will be available to Policies, Annual Reports etc.
Members will not need to visit site every day – new topics will be indicated if you subscribe to the page.
Need to set a date by which all L/A’s to be registered
Need for each L/A to consider whether their info has to be bi-lingual in consultation with their own Officers
Discussion around need for what information needs to be secure/non-secure. Group agreed that it is the responsibility of the individual L/A to make this decision and any info they want to remain secure should be submitted with a rider to indicate this.
SSIA leaflets distributed / All

All

Feedback on Children’s Commissioners presentation

Presentation distributed by JH to all members via email. The aim of the presentation was to open up links of communication. Group discussion highlighted the following issues:
  • The Office still tends to get involved with issues and act as advocate but do not tend to follow through.
  • The communication between the Office and L/A’s is limited
  • The advice on the remit and powers of office is still not clear
  • There are examples of the Office becoming involved in issues with no forewarning
Need for AWCOG to highlight these issues with Office – AS is meeting with an Officer in near future and will discuss /

AS

Any other Business

DB highlighted need for Contracts to be drawn up for I O’s. Group discussion highlighted the following areas of concern:
  • Recent case where the IP highlighted that they felt the IO was biased toward family – IO withdrew their services but had already shared the findings with the complainant.
  • Some IO’s are expressing their concern at being called to stage 3 Panels and being cross examined – this may be influencing how they write their reports
  • Instances of IO’s sharing report with Comps without redacting third party information
Details of IO’s to be put on the website and this could indicate who had experience of their practice. Members could discuss on individual level their experiences of the IO’s.
Individual L/A’s responsible for checking IO details, police checks etc.
RCT has access to national contract – to be circulated /

RCT

Time and date of the next meeting

Friday 9th March, Committee Room A, Y Gwalia, Llandrindod Wells