English Lit Ii Literature

ENGLISH LIT II LITERATURE

DISCUSSION QUESTION

Directions: After reading the lecture, answer one of the main questions, which will appear in red.

Your responses to other students' answers are due RIGHT AWAY. In order to get the full points, you MUST respond to at least 6 other people's postings.

Remember: late answers receive 0 points, so post early :)

Directions: After reading the lecture, answer one of the main questions, which will appear in red.

Points will be assigned according to the thoughtfulness of your answers and responses, not by whether they are "right" or not, since sometimes there is no "right" answer. Just be sure your ideas are supported by the material in the readings.

QUOTATIONS: PAGE NUMBERS FOR QUOTES!!!!

DISCUSSION 6

Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

1. Sylvere Monod says, "...Great Expectations...concerns itself with the weaknesses and pettinesses of mankind and can have no real hero or heroine..." Do you agree? That is, do you see Estella as a "heroine" or Pip as a "hero"? Explain.

2. As I said in the lecture, Dickens added a happy ending to the novel. Below are the two endings; which do you think is more appropriate for the novel?

Ending #1, the original.

"We are friends," said I, rising and bending over her, as she arose from the bench.
"And will continue friends apart," said Estella.

Ending #2, the revision.

"We are friends," said I, rising and bending over her, as she arose from the bench.
"And will continue friends apart," said Estella.
I took her hand in mine, and we went out of the ruined place; and as the morning mists had risen long ago when I first left the forge, so the evening mists were rising now, and in all the broad expanse of tranquil light they showed to me, I saw no shadow of another parting from her.

It is interesting how adding one extra sentence to the end of the novel can completely change the mood of the ending. As Pip is not a traditional hero, it seems fitting that the ending of the novel not have a traditional resolution by having the couple end up ‘happily ever after’. The first ending is more appropriate as it goes well with the theme of the rest of the story. As Pip travels and goes through life, he comes home to a familiar place to find that his changed as much as he has. Similarly, Estella has changed as well. Estella matured and became a better person after years of suffering through her horrible marriage to Drummle. Though Estella and Pip have a past together, and they have an appreciation for each other, they have evolved down different paths. Just as Pip changed, and his home changed, Estella changed, and the changes do not always mesh well with one another. In this case it made more sense for them to stay friends and be only friends because they could be supportive each other without the baggage of the romantic relationship.

Though there is often a desire on the part of the reader for a happy ending, in this case, the happy ending would have been too coincidental and not at all realistic. Pip had resigned himself to be a bachelor and Estella carried her emotional baggage from her bad marriage. The idea of the two of them suddenly working out a good romantic relationship just doesn’t seem logical.

DISCUSSION 7

Arnold

T. S. Eliot thinks Matthew Arnold's poetry is seriously flawed: "Arnold's poetry...is academic poetry in the best sense; the best fruit which can issue from the promise shown by the prize-poem..." He sees Arnold as an educator, rather than a poet, arguing that his poetry is wooden, immature, and moralistic. Do you agree? Explain.

Pater

In the "Conclusion" to his essay, The Renaissance, Walter Pater says, "To burn always with this hard, gemlike flame, to maintain this ecstasy, is success in life." Do you agree?

Hopkins

Some critics like the way Hopkins makes up words to suit the message and style of his poems; others dislike it. What is your opinion on this issue?

I truly enjoy the way Hopkins makes up words to suit the message and style of his poems. It not only adds meaning and a feel but gives a visual interpretation that normal words cannot provide. “grieving/Over Goldengrove unleaving” gives the reader a mental picture of golden colors and leaves dropping from the trees. The idea of fall as an ending leads to the use of this imagery. Also, he talks of “Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie; And yet you will weep and know why.” The idea of the remnants of trees and leaves lying on the forest floor rotting and decaying, give a sadness and sense of death. The phrase “wanwood leafmeal” though completely made up, is very descriptive. In addition, the made up words allow the reader to apply their own meanings and imagery to the words. When I hear “leafmeal”, I picture the wet, half-rotted leaf litter that lies on the forest floor. It is dark and mushy (mealy) and has the smell of decay. Others may interpret the phrase or word differently, but that is the beauty of the made up words. They can mean slightly different things to each person, but the main idea is always the same. Some might criticize the use of made up words because it requires more work on the part of the reader to interpret what the author meant by a particular word of phrase. In fact, a reader may completely not understand or may misinterpret what the author intended when the words are not ones found in a common dictionary. However, I think this adds to the artistry of the work. It allows the reader to have a more active role in the imagery that is being presented because they must come up with their own internal definitions of what the words mean rather than allowing the author to lay out the terms in black and white.

DISCUSSION 8

Charlotte Bronte, Jane Eyre

1. Jean Rhys's novel, The Wide Sargasso Sea, is a modern retelling of the Rochester-Bertha story, from Bertha's point of view. This novel makes it clear that Bertha's madness is largely Rochester's doing. Do you find anything in Jane Eyre that would support such a point of view?

2. Jane certainly deviates from some of the social standards of her time about what roles women should play; we know, also, that Charlotte Bronte, like her character, chafed against the restrictions she faced because she was a woman. Is Jane Eyre, then, a "feminist" novel? Explain.

3. Some critics have seen the numerous coincidences in the novel as a weakness. They especially point to Jane's ending up at the Rivers household, to her "hearing" Rochester's voice in the garden, and to Bertha's ever-so-convenient death. Do you feel that the coincidences in the novel weaken it?

In terms of feminism as the theory of social, political, and economic equality for men and women, Jane Eyre is a feminist novel. Bronte takes the boundaries of traditional women’s roles in the 19th century and she pushes them to new limits. Jane takes control of her life and does not submit to any situations where she is under the control of another or where her principles might be threatened. Even from a young age, the character of Jane defies convention. Though it would have been perfectly acceptable at the time to marry into a socially respectable union with no love, Jane turned down that union. When Jane first met Rochester, she did not run away with him because she felt it would violate her personal principles. This is Bronte’s commentary on the role of women in a marriage. She criticizes men and their idea that wives are their property and can therefore be acquired or gotten rid of as they choose. By standing up for what she believed in, she was able to garner respect from those around her. Jane showed great strength when she said “I care for myself. The more solitary, the more friendless, the more unsustatined I am, the more I will respect myself.” In contrast to the character of Georgina Reed, Jane could be strong and settle things for herself and not have to sacrifice her dignity.

Bronte probably adopted the feminist approach because of her family life. After Bronte’s mother died, she with her five siblings were left alone with their father. Her sister effectively took over as the mother figure, but when the two oldest sisters died, it was Bronte’s turn to become the mother figure. Because of these stresses, it is logical that she would want to break out of the typical female role.

DISCUSSION 9

Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

1. Regenia Gagnier argues in her article, "Wilde and the Victorians," that Oscar Wilde's rebellion against Victorian social conventions is only superficial--at heart, she says, he truly accepts Victorian values. The Victorians sought control of the physical world through the use of science and technology; they wanted to be free from Nature (i.e., scarcity), and they had faith in the objectivity of their knowledge. They wanted freedom from political tyranny and economic exploitation, and believed firmly in individual freedom, equality, and autonomy. They also believed that human beings were essentially rational and, while they were social beings, were individually unique.
Other critics have argued that Wilde's rejection of Victorian social values makes him a Modern. The Moderns rejected the political and religious traditions upon which society had laid its foundations. They believed that God either never existed, or was now dead. Thus, all values based on a belief in God had to be called into question. There could, then, be no objective "Truth," since the only way we could know things was through our individual perceptions; with God no longer serving as arbiter, there was no longer any way to discover whose perception was correct. There could also be no firm basis for morality or ethics, as systems of morality and ethics had been based on religious systems. (More on Modernism in next week's lecture.)
In your opinion, was Wilde a Victorian or a Modern? Explain.

2. Critics have had various reactions to The Importance of Being Earnest.

• George Bernard Shaw said that the play was "heartless," "merely an assemblage of old-fashioned farcical devices," and objected to its lack of purpose.
• Richard Ellman believes that the play is beautifully done, and not at all purposeless. Its theme, he says, is sin and crime, rendered harmless by being treated indifferently.
• William Archer wrote, "It is delightful to see, it sends wave after wave of laughter curling and foaming around the theatre; but as a text for criticism it is barren and delusive...what can a poor critic do with a play which raises no principle, whether of art or morals, creates its own canons and conventions, and is nothing but an absolutely wilful expression of an irrepressibly witty personality?"

In your opinion, does the play have any "purpose" beyond entertainment?

Yes, I believe that the play The Importance of Being Ernest does have purpose beyond that of pure entertainment. Oscar Wilde uses the farce and satire to point out some of the foolishness of Victorian ideals of the time. The jabs that Wilde makes at the Victorian culture are sometimes light-hearted, but at other times rather scathing and bitter. At the same time he is mocking the sensibilities of the Victorians, he is pointing to his more Modern beliefs as better examples.

Many people see the play as strictly entertainment. They see the jabs at the Victorian culture not as a social statement, but as more fodder for the laughter. Each jab though carries an undercurrent of cultural commentary. One example of this is at the very beginning of the play when Algernon has just finished playing the piano. He turns to his butler to ask him if he heard what he had been playing and the butler responds with “I didn’t think it polite to listen, sir.” The Victorians were so proper and stuffy that they did not want to admit to eavesdropping on something as benign as piano playing when they were in the same room.

Victorians held the ideal of marriage and family to a level that in many cases seemed unrealistic. In an attempt to show how ridiculous some of the Victorian standards regarding decorum and behavior were, Wilde poked fun by feigning scandal when a woman actually flirted with her own husband. Another tenet that Victorians held to was that the truth was to be objective. Wilde flat out disputed this notion when Algernon said, “The truth is rarely pure and never simple.”

Victorian principles were definitely under attack in Wilde’s play, but he did it in a manner that made it seem like entertainment. Of course, how readers react today may be quite different than when the play was first published and performed. Those who held to the Victorian standards may have taken serious affront to being made fun of, while today, we see the entire show as funny.

DISCUSSION 10

(CHECK THE LINK FOR THE POEMS)

For more information on Rupert Brooke:

• Rupert Brooke gives a brief biography and links to e-texts of his poems.
• Rupert Brooke on Skyros gives information on Brooke's grave at Skyros, and lots of good biographical information and photos. A very interesting site.
• Rupert Brooke is another site with a biographical sketch, but it also contains links to some critical articles and a bit more historical background.
• The Collected Poems of Rupert Brooke contains e-texts of Brooke's poetry.

For more information on Siegfried Sassoon:

• Siegfried Sassoon has a biographical sketch, some historical background, a critical essay, and links to e-texts of Sassoon's poetry.
• Counter-Attack: Siegfried Sassoon has a good biography of Sassoon, plus links to lots and lots of related information.
• Sassoon on the Somme has accounts of the battles, Sassoon's part in them, and lots of photos. Great site!

For more information on Wilfred Owen:

• War Poems and Manuscripts of Wilfred Owen contains e-texts of many of Owen's poems.
• Wilfred Owen gives an extremely brief biographical sketch, but also has links to his poetry.
• The Wilfred Owen Association has tons of information about Owen's life, including a virtual tour. Good stuff!

For more information on W. B. Yeats:

• The Collected Poems of W. B. Yeats has e-texts of many of Yeats's poems, and links to lots of other great information on Yeats, including a biographical sketch and critical articles.
• W. B. Yeats is a brief biography of Yeats, with links to e-texts of some of his poems.
• Book and Writers's page on Yeats has a pretty good biographical sketch and links to information on some of the other poets who were important influences on Yeats.
• Yeats Society Sligo is an excellent page, with biographical information, lots of pictures, and the Yeats Poetry Tour, which you can take from the comfort of your own home.

For more information on T. S. Eliot:

• What the Thunder Said is a site with information on the life and work of Eliot: a good timeline of his life, e-texts of most of his poems, and links to articles about his work. A good site!
• The T.S. Eliot Page has lots of good links to information on Eliot.
• T. S. Eliot is an excellent site, with links to lots of other useful articles, and best of all, a concordance of Eliot's poems--very useful!
• T. S. Eliot Read: hear audio recordings of Eliot reading his poetry. Very interesting!

1. Of the World War I poems by Brooke, Owen, and Sassoon, which do you find the most effective at conveying its message? Why?

2. The Wasteland was published between World War I and World War II, in 1922. Is it still relevant today? Why or why not?

I think Wilfred Owen’s poems about World War I were some of the most effective at conveying the message. In his poem “The Next War”, Owen talked about meeting Death in the field. He uses imagery to portray Death as a person and a reality. To those who are fighting in battle, I am sure that Death does become something like a specter that could appear at anytime and eventually begins to take on a personality. Rather than the enemy shooting it was Death that spat bullets and “coughed Shrapnel”. Owen speaks as though Death were someone that they got used to hanging around and he was not the true enemy. They were not there to specifically fight against Death, because that is a losing battle every time.

The other poem of Owen’s that had an incredible impact was Spring Offensive. This poem starts out painting the picture of a beautiful spring day. Phrases such as “May breeze”, “warm field” and “butter cups Had blessed with gold their slow boots” paint a picture of men walking through a field on a calm day. Quickly, the tone of the poem changes and the quiet field turns into men running and dying and “the whole sky burned with fury against them”. The buttercups that had been described just moments before were now cups to hold the blood that had been spilled. There is an analogy to hell, as is common in many poems about war, and the final phrase speaks of the death of the men who had charged the hill.