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Hartshorne04262005
Euclid Corridor History Project
Interview with Dr. Tom Harshorne
Interviewed by Jeff Klingman
April 26, 2005
11:30 AM
ClevelandStateUniversity, RhodesTower, Rm 1604
Catergories
Biographical, Karamu House, Neighborhood
Tom Hartshorne.
Ummm … Madison, Wisconsin. And I … uhhh … grew up there until I was 10 at which point my parents moved to Detroit and … uhhh … I was there basically until I entered the University of Wisconsin in 1951 and from that point on I pretty much lived in Madison until … ummm … I got drafted in 1959 and came to Cleveland and my wife joined me later and we’ve been here ever since.
Well … uhhh … originally I came here because … uhhh … Uncle Sam invited me. Ummm … I … the … got a choice of assignments and I saw that one of them was … uhhh … working at a recruiting and induction station in Cleveland and I figured I wouldn’t have to live on an army base and do all of that nonsense and … uhhh … you know … so basically it was two years of working a civilian job except I wore an army uniform to work. Ummm … and then … uhhh … after my wife joined me here she got a job … ummm … running the dance department at Karamu House and … uhhh … so she was doing that while I was working on my Ph.D. dissertation and then when I got that far enough along … ummm … that I thought I could get a job I looked around and I got a job teaching at the Kent State branches here in Cleveland and then when Cleveland State came into existence a few years later they took those branches over so I became a part of Cleveland State.
Uhhh … South Euclid and … uhhh … basically because we found a fantastic house … ummm … two acres of land right in the middle of the city and woods and all kinds of things.
Well … uhhh … nothing compares to Madison. (3:00) Ummm … that’s number one. Ummm … Detroit … uhhh … I like Cleveland much better than Detroit … ummm … it’s … uhhh … more cultural life … ummm … even though it’s a smaller city than Detroit and also … ummm … Detroit is just absolutely flat and for … from … for someone who came from basically rolling hills which is like what Madison is … ummm … Detroit was a real shock … so … you know … I like Cleveland a lot better cuz it’s much more interesting geographically and culturally.
Well … uhhh … she was … uhhh … we were at the University of Wisconsin together … ummm … she was majoring in … ummm … biology, did one year … one year’s worth of graduate work in biology … ummm … but she’d always been mostly interested in dance and … ummm … after her … ummm … one year in graduate school in biology she got an opportunity to go to New York … ummm … and study dance so she did and later became a member of Jose Lymon Company which is one of the leading modern dance companies at the time. Ummm … and … but she’d always been interested … more interested … in choreographing than in performing and when she joined me in Cleveland … ummm … the woman who was running the dance department at Karamu at the time was an old friend of Jose Lymon’s and so … he … she got to know Eleanor Frampton through Jose and Eleanor was running the dance department at Karamu so Joan went down there and … ummm … just … shortly after Joan got there Eleanor Frampton retired and … uhhh … they asked Joan to take over for her.
Well it … ummm … it was … ummm … Russell and Rowena Jelliffe founded Karamu I think in 1915 … ummm … and they were social workers and Karamu House was part of the settlement house movement that was quite widespread at the time. The idea was that … uhhh … (cough) … people would go into working (6:00) class or poor neighborhoods and … you know … create … uhhh … you know, literally a house in most instances … uhhh … which would become a … uhhh … kind of focal point for the community and provide various kinds of social services and recreational opportunities and educational things that wouldn’t otherwise be available and the Jelliffe’s did that in the central neighborhood in Cleveland in 1915 … ummm … and somewhere along the line, and I don’t know exactly how this happened, or why, or when … uhhh … but the emphasis shifted toward … uhhh … the arts … ummm … and that was the way it was when we came in contact with it in the very early 1960’s. By that time it had moved to its present home which is East 89th and Quincy. Ummm … and by that time … ummm … the idea of Karamu as an interracial arts center was … uhhh … very well developed … uhhh … theater was … uhhh … you know … first rate and something that attracted audiences from all over the Greater Cleveland area. Ummm … the Karamu Dance Company, even though it was an amateur company, was … ummm … certainly one of the … uhhh … better dance performance groups in the Cleveland area. There were classes in the visual arts … uhhh … so … you know … it was basically a thriving place.
Uhhh, yeah … it … it was … uhhh … it was quite well-known nationally … ummm … largely because I think it, I don’t know of anything … uhhh … quite like it anywhere else in the country, so it was well-known for its unique character. Ummm … also the dancers had made a big splash at New York’s World’s Fair in 1939 and … uhhh … a lot of … ummm … a lot of theater people were very well aware of what Karamu was doing. Langston Hughes, the playwrite and poet, had a close association with Karamu over a long period of time. Ummm … and … ummm … for all those reasons Karamu was quite well-known nationally.
Ummm … a lot of support … uhhh … from fairly wealthy patrons … uhhh … ummm … you know … ticket sales did part of it, but no artistic organization is going to make a living just on ticket sales. Ummm … so there … you know … donations from wealthy patrons … uhhh … (9:00) foundation grants … uhhh … quite a … you know … a lot of foundation money.
Not that I know about. Probably, but … uhhh … none that I know of specifically.
Uhhh, yes, I knew them both.
Ummm … at the time I knew them … uhhh … it was just before they retired. Ummm … and … ummm … you know … people in any institution always joke about the boss … uhhh … and … uhhh … there was a feeling at Karamu that … you know … they hadn’t really kept … they weren’t as much in touch with what was going on culturally now as they might have been. Ummm … they had serious reservations about jazz, for example. Ummm … but, on the other hand … ummm … I know that Rowena Jelliffe remained vital and active and concerned with community affairs until she was up into her 90’s. Ummm … I forget how old she was when she was died in the … the figure 92 sticks in my mind but I’m not … I could be wrong about that, but I know she was in her 90’s and … you know … she was … uhhh … going to Cleveland Orchestra concerts and attending dance performances at Case Western Reserve and … you know … until just shortly before she died. So she remained very much interested … ummm … and … you know … the feeling around the … ummm … around Karamu at the time was that she was the one who was really running the institution. Ummm … it’s sort of like the relationship between the provost and the president at most universities. The president does the outreach to the rest of the community and the provost is the one who does the internal governing things, and that was sort of the relationship between … ummm … the feeling was that she did most of the running of Karamu and Russell was basically interested in fund raising, although I’m sure that there was a division of … you know … they really divided up both jobs.
Uhhh … it’s … uhhh … yeah, I think it’s partly … ummm … you know … you find this even in the African-American community … uhhh … there is a … founded in the African-American community, a couple of generations ago. Ummm … the tendency to think that jazz really (12:00) isn’t quite respectable cuz after all, it was born in bars and whorehouses and place like that … places like that. Ummm … and it … that image of jazz as being … ummm … the music of the lower classes conflicted with the drive on the part of people who were interested in the whole civil rights question to make … uhhh … African-Americans seem non-threatening and respectable. And … uhhh … jazz … uhhh … in the eyes of some people … you know … undermined that effort and I think that was probably what motivated them. They didn’t … ummm … they saw it as … uhhh … and this was an attitude that was still widespread in 1960. Jazz was not an artform, it was popular entertainment and not very high class popular entertainment at that.
I think so, yes. Uhhh … and this is something else that changed over the course of time. It became … ummm … you know … the focus became more and more interracial as it was when we were there in the 1960’s. Uhhh … but initially … uhhh … you know … it was located in an African-American neighborhood and it was supposed to be an institution predominantly for African-Americans. Ummm … that changed along with the … as the emphasis on the arts began to … uhhh … emerge … uhhh … you know … to attract in more and more whites. And so that changed too. And again I don’t think it was … uhhh … at first I don’t think it was intentional. It was just something that evolved over time.
Uhhh … no, I don’t. Uhhh … I … but … speculating I would say they looked around and … ummm … you know … they saw this need … ummm … and … you know … they’re both, if I’m not mistaken, they’re both graduates of Oberlin which has this … you know … long standing reputation of being interested in questions having (15:00) to do with racial justice, so I think that had something to do with it.
Ummm … it’s well … it’s … in the first place it’s been … ummm … some years since I’ve had any real intimate contact with Karamu or the neighborhood. Uhhh … but in the 20 years or so that I was closely associated with it I didn’t really see any significant changes in the neighborhood, and … ummm … I don’t know what the situation is now, frankly.
Ummm … it … uhhh … basically … ummm … middle class, lower middle class … ummm … very … uhhh, well … at least the one block of East 89th street … ummm … that I’m familiar with, most familiar with, between Carnegie and Ce … uhhh … Quincy … ummm … actually that’s two blocks, a long block between Cedar and Quincy … ummm … was … ummm … you know … very nice, very pleasant block … uhhh … ummm … predominantly two family houses, up and down … ummm … but on the whole very well taken care of … ummm … you know … nice plantings, flowers, things like that. Nice street to walk down.
Uhhh ... depends on the age group you’re talking about. Ummm … when we were there … ummm … a lot of the children’s classes and programs … uhhh … were predominantly kids from the neighborhood … uhhh … although, again with all … as with all the other things at Karamu it attracted people from all over, but most of the kids came from the immediate neighborhood. Adults, not so much. At least that was my sense.
Oh, yeah … well, it depends. The north-south streets, the numbered streets, those are residential but then … you know … Cedar is basically a commercial street. Quincy is basically a commercial street. Going east and west. So it’s … uhhh … ummm … you have … you know … the stores, etcetera, located on the east … main east-west streets and the residents are all located on the smaller north-south streets.
Uhhh … no, it … it was, let’s see, I’m trying to think if there were any chain stores in the (18:00) immediate neighborhood. Not that I can think. It was practically all Mom and Pop stuff.
No … it … uhhh … there was a decline … ummm … and the decline was, I think, largely attributable to … ummm … not so much suburbanization because when we were there in its heyday it was still attracting a lot of people from the suburbs. Ummm … but with the whole advent of Black Nationalism, and especially black cultural nationalism. In the late ‘60’s … ummm … Karamu began changing its emphasis to do more and more exclusively African-American stuff. Ummm … and … ummm … white audiences began to dry up to a certain extent, white monies began to dry up to a certain extent, and … uhhh … fewer … less representation of white people on the board which … you know … basically is the institution that made … well, the executive director ran the institution but the board was responsible for … uhhh … making the deci … ummm … had oversight … ummm … and … ummm ... more and more white people left the board … ummm … so to that extent I think that … ummm …you know … white flight isn’t the right term quite to describe what happened, but something like that.
I thhh … I think so … ummm …the ‘60’s … uhhh … were … you know … good times economically … uhhh … both for Cleveland, for the country in general, and they were also very good times for the arts … ummm … there was a sense that … uhhh … this is something that’s important, it’s worth supporting … ummm … later in the ‘70’s … uhhh … with the economy … ummm … not doing nearly as well as it had in the ‘60’s … uhhh … I think support for the arts in general dried up and … ummm … Karamu was in part a casualty of that.
Well, again, I really can’t speak to Karamu the way it is now because I haven’t gotten any direct contact with it, but what made it such a (21:00) wonderful place … uhhh … in my estimation when I was in contact with it, was that it was doing wonderful things in all of the arts … ummm … doing it … ummm … on an interracial basis and also doing it with amateurs and I think, and that was … ummm … you know … that was absolutely marvelous. People who, like me … uhhh … had other … you know … primary career choices, but were interested in one or the other of the arts. Uhhh … had an outlet, had a place where we could go for training and if we were good enough had a place where we could perform. Ummm … and you don’t find a whole lot of that anymore, and … ummm … you know, I think that’s one of the things that made Karamu great, the fact that it was primarily interracial, the fact that it was exclusively amateur. I mean you had paid people on the staff, obviously, directing shows and doing the … ummm … you know … the technical director, but even an awful lot of the back stage stuff got done on a volunteer basis.
Basically by auditioning … you know … when a play is done the director would have auditions and … uhhh … would choose … uhhh … you know … people he wanted to play the parts from those who auditioned for them … ummm … to get into the dance company … you know … uhhh … you took dance classes and if … ummm … director … in that case, my wife … thought you were good enough she would invite you to join the company and … you know … give you things to do based on how good you were, what your capabilities were.
No … uhhh … di … d … d … it varied. Uhhh ... you know … it … it was a case of … uhhh … who’s there and basically as far as the dance company is concerned. Now, when you’re running a theater you’ve got a play, you’ve got so many roles you have to cast. But what they did even there to a certain extent was adapt … uhhh … whatever the circumstances were. You know, there might be a lot of people who tried out and … ummm … you know … many of them were pretty good so what they would do would be double cast. Uhhh … so on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday one group of people would play the parts and Monday, Wednesday, and Friday another group would play the parts. Ummm … and … and that was also due in part to the fact that all of these people had … you know … daytime jobs so they (24:00) didn’t have that much free time, they couldn’t commit six nights a week. Ummm … so … ummm … you know … basically it … uhhh … let me say the main thrust was more … to be more inclusive than exclusive … you … you know … tried to find something for practically everybody to do. It wasn’t quite that there was a no-cut policy, but … uhhh … you know … if somebody doesn’t have quite what it takes to play their leading role in a play … you know … give that person a series of very small roles and hope that they will develop and get better over time.
Ummm … yeah, we didn’t ever get as … well, we … as a matter of fact, I was gonna say we didn’t ever get as far as New York, we got as far as Boston. Ummm … yeah … ummm … we did … ummm … do performances in other places … uhhh … let’s see, I’m trying to remember. There was a big public art festival in Boston we performed at. We did performances at WoosterCollege. We did a performance at OhioState. We did … ummm … other … ummm … you know … colleges and universities in and around Ohio. Uhhh … let’s see … out of state. Ummm … we did a couple of others … I’m trying to remember where exactly. Boston Arts Festival, I know. Ummm … and a few other road trips here and there, yeah.