DAT-Cassette 10
Interview with Kee Wagner, Medizinmann, Lower Greasewood Area (9.Juli 2003)
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0´10´´ K.W. My name is Kee Wagner. I am a Navajo Medicine man. Traditionalist. We are on a place called Greasewood, Arizona.
0´22´´ E.K. You live in a Hogan?
O´28´´ K.W. … I’ve been living in a Hogan for about 7 months now.
0´30´´ E.K.:
034´´ K. W. I used to live in a big house. (….) With kids running all over the place it’s very hard to concentrate on certain things.
1´02´´ E.K. Preparing herbs.
1´16´´ K.W. Preparing seven herbs … 1´34´´ these herbs you can use in different ceremonial rites, different illnesses people have. Most of them are just native plants around here.
1´52´´ E.K. Meine Erfahrung mit Jonathan, die Geschichte seines Großvaters über den Coyote-Skin walker... „wintershell woman“ ..., die Stelle auf dem Band nicht zu verstehen.
3´53´´ K.W.: Well, the way that I understand this kind of thing is, there are “mystical people”, they say, when you see them your whole mind just goes in blank, then afterwards it’s just a dream. …. You can’t really tell what you saw, saw what you saw, maybe just dream about it, that’s the way it is, they say. 4´40´´ as far as I know, in my time, nobody has really seen a skin walker, they are mystical, you just hear about them. There are a lot of things happening today that pretains to them, people are getting sick, things happening with people, unnatural things, supernatural things happen with people. 5´14´´ I myself have experienced within a ceremony, crystal way ceremony, I was looking at the hole thing and it was doing a kind just floated and moved around, moved and moved constantly. 5´32´´ the way that I looked at it, it was rainbow colors in it, there is spiritual movement in there, that I couldn’t really put a finger on. 5´46´´ I kept looking at it and kept asking about, what it was, what kind of effect it has on the person. All of a sudden the fire itself went completely down to just one amber, one little red amber, it stayed there for about 20 seconds, then all a sudden just thrown lad fuel on it, the fire just lid back up like that, after that I left it alone, I don’t try get into that. 6´29´´ that’s why I say they are mystical. And nobody that I have talked to in the past really understands things about these things. Maybe some older people, they know more about it and they can talk about it, but from my part of the family, they taught me these traditional rites, these rituals, they said, leave this stuff alone, that’s not for you. 7´00´´ this ceremonial way of life, the one you have right now, that’s a good way of life, that’s for helping people, that’s for you, this mystical way of life is for disrupting peoples lives … that’s not for you. They told me that, that’s why I leave it alone now. 7´25´´ People tried to get into with me talking about these things, they ask me in crystal ceremonies … what this skin walker, what it is and how they travel, and with what, what kind of instruments they use, what kind of palls or animal skins they use … I get glimpses here and there within the crystal ceremony, but I don’t talk about it, because, the way I understand it, if you talk about it, a kind to find something about these things, in the long run, it will come around and disrupt your life, disrupt what you do. … I just leave it alone pretty much.
8´25´´ E.K. Gibt es Medizinmänner, die das in den Zeremonien berühren?
8´35´´ K.W. Yes, yes.
8´46´´ E.K. Zeremonie, deren Anfang ich gestern beiwohnen könnte, enemyaway ceremony. Um was geht es? Viele Leute sprachen davon, Songs and Dances, sozialer Teil, Veterans, die im Krieg waren.
9´35´´ K.W. What we call enemyaway ceremony is basically about the other culture, what we call the Anasazi. That culture that’s how it got started. Basically with the beginning with this ceremony there was only two or three different ones, that they performed with that, like the Anasazi and then another one with the Mexican people and then another one with the white raced people. … Back in the early 19 hundreds, mid 19 hundreds, towards the 1960, that’s where everything changed, when people started getting around much more, starting with the World War 1, World War 2 areas and then the Korean War areas, and then the Vietnam, and then with the Dessert Storm and now with the Persian Golf. In these different places people go to, they encounter … different races of people. It’s not the life people they do the ceremony against, it’s the ones that are dead, that are killed in wars. 11´24´´ they say, if you …smirred with in a different race of peoples blood … they might infect your mind, even the kinds of food that they eat, the cultures that they go by … 12´04´´ that itself can be the cause of your illness. And then it can bother you physically, it can bother you mentally, it can bother you spiritually, and that is what this enemyaway ceremony is all about.
12´22´´to bring those spirits out of your system, this is why they tide a drum, that’s why they tight it last night, they made a sound, the drum sound on your bottom on your feet, then on the knees, your chest, body, shoulders, palms, on your face and then on the top of your head and then four, five times from your mouth. And then they go outside, they hit, beat that drum and then they sing those five basic songs (…) 13´08´´ the translation of those songs are against enemies like we have our traditional stories, the Navajo traditional stories and the story about the giant, the stories about different kinds of biest, that ruined (?) the world and how they were killed, because they were getting into the human race and they were starting to eat the human race, they were starting to kill them, a kind of wipe them of the earth, that’s why they were killed, and that’s why these songs, we sing about those things. 13´50´´ and then the continuation of this enemy away ceremony usually takes four days at least for the ceremony to be completed, four nights and four days for this ceremony be completed, they tire ceremonial staff, which is about 16-18 inches long, take it out of a juniper tree and then a gourmand with eagle feathers and then deer hoofs and then … red sash and then they put a little drawing on it and then adoring it with animal fats (…) and then they utilize them. That’s a representation at the lance, that was used to kill this biests, that is what its represents. And the drawings on that they represent tow different things. There is a bow, drawn on the eastside of the ceremonial staff, that represents the masters leer and his brother, they were the once who hold this. And then the adornment, that’s what that represents. And then the other adornment is gonna be a little figurate thing, that’s gonna be on the Westside, that’s a bund that we have, the Navaho people, they put on the back of our heads, that represents the white shell woman. (…) With those combine, they say, with the songs and the socialize (?) of the hole thing it will rejuvening (?) your body completely that way. With the songs, the singing and the dancing and then the food it’s being used there. And all these speeches made there, comments made there and encouragements …that’s just to help the patient get rejuvenated. That goes on for the duration of the ceremony …
16´35´´ E.K.: So you try … to get the power of your ancients and your culture to get rid of the evil in this person?
16´54´´ K.W. Basicallythat’s what it is. 16´57´´ And the last day in the ceremony, and that’s really crucial, they call it the person black, the black in the person, they mask his face with paints and stuff, just like in the war days, they used to put war paint on the face and on the body, even on their horses, that’s similar to that, put a lot of paint on their faces, this purpose is, we have somebody go out there and killing this evil spirit that is bothering the patient. And then the patients, they go over there and they watch all what is being done. And after they are do there thing over there the patients turn around and start walking back and they start jog almost a fast paced … towards the Hogan. 18´14´´ the reason behind the masking, the coloring and everything is to disguise oneself. So they go back into the shade they have a little white putty (?) over there, they use, they put there hands into there, they paint themselves, their body, even their face, back the arms … and even you know the person very well, you look at the person and then he look different. 18´45´´ so they use it as a disguise (disguised?) from that evil spirit, that start roaming around again, even after it is killed, it’saspiring for somebody else from that culture, it’s starting roaming around again, looking for that particular person. And with that disguise they will not recognize him, pretty soon they will say: Ah, he is gone, I don’t know where you went, so that it is what is all about.
19´18´´ E.K. Diese Zeremonie auch für Krankheiten wie Aids?
19´28´´ K.W. No, this enemyaway ceremony is mostly for people who think they are being bothered by dead spirits, not the Navaho people but from different cultures. (…) 19´58´´ These herbs that I am fixing here, this mixture of herbs is for a variety of ceremonies like I would saying… some of these are tubular, some of them leaves for spider bites, scorpions, snakebites. … 20´45´´ it’s used, that green one right there, it’s real punching and if you taste it’s real bitter, it will clean up your blood vanes. (…) If you have low or high blood pressure, that’s what we use to neutralize it. 21´12´´ and then to open your blood passages from the heart. (…) 21´20´´ and then like this one they use it primarily for somebody has a kind of a cancer, like a …. 21´35´´ the mixture of all these different herbs are used…, if someone has aids, certain ones are real bitter, they are tea but real bitter. If you drink a whole of it and then it can make you puke or can give you diarrhea and that’s how all these negative things who are inside that make you ill that way come out of your system … that’s how it gets out of diseases and the negative things who are inside your body, that’s how we do away with it. (….) 22´30´´ For the ceremonies we do, there is a lot of different ceremonies. 23´00´´ back in the beginning, where my grandfather was a young man, when he started doing this traditional ceremony, that one I am doing now …he said, it was very different.23´22´´ only occasionally, maybe three or four times in the year they were doing this ceremony. …Maybe there prayers were stronger, maybe they… maybe that’s why they didn’t have all these kinds of problems then. 23´54´´and then the years went by my grandpa passed away and then my father is doing the ceremony again. 24´02´´ maybe. once a month or twice a month he is doing ceremonies. Now, I started in 1970 doing this ceremony, now it’s very different, it’s as almost every other day people come over and ask for help with these different ceremonies that we do. 24´28´´ And people ask, why is it like that? …(…) Maybe it is because, way back then this whole reservation was a kind of a remote area, there wasn’t too many white mens stores or trading posts. … For the most part, people back then, our ancestors back then had gardens, they planted there own corn, they planted there own melons and stuff, squash …beans, anything that can be harvest when it’s right, they planted that themselves and took care of it. And then they had, they herd sheep, they had sheep and they know how all this sheep had been raced and they practically raced themselves. 25´35´´ And all this different vegetation, natural foods that come on the earth, that they used back then. …. Maybe that’s the difference. 25´45´´ nowadays all we have is can goods, store-bought meat ….25´55´´ the way they the stories about all this is, lightning is not good for you. Any kind of animal who has bitten by a snake, if you eat it, is not good for you, it will bother you. And then, way out there in different states, they preserve different kinds of food. There is tornadoes way out there towards the east and some of them they harvest, when a tornado has gone through, they harvest and they preserve. Some of these older people, that’s what they believe, they say, these things, they bring over here, that’s what is bothering us. (…) 26´50´´ back in our ancestors days, they raced sheep and took care of it, they know what kind of vegetation the sheep will be eaten. Nowadays this is different, this cattle, pigs, they raced in different places and they grind their food with a lot of different things, chemicals and stuff, they put it in and feed their, to make the flesh (Fleisch) real good, tender and … 27´26´´ and then with all that, they butcher over there and bring it into the reservations … and there it is, somehow it is contaminated. 27´48´´ and then with the natural resources the same thing, there is a lot of minings different kinds. 27´55´´ there were talking about uranium mining. That wasn’t good for the people and some of them got sick, really sick, because of that. And then there is these coalmines. … with the water, that they use, the same thing goes into the earth and comes back in different places. In such a way it’scontaminated, and we use that and that’s what is bothering us, that is, what people making ill, they say. 28´34´´ we try to utilize different herbs to we can neutralize all these bad things, that are happening with us, physically and spiritually. So this is what all this is about, ceremonies and stuff.
28´55´´ E.K. For Navaho it’s important to live in Harmony with nature. – Ursachen der Zeremonien, all die Krankheiten. Yaibitchai and Peyote – Zeremonie.
29´50´´ K.W.: Yaibechai-ceremony, what we call a nightchantceremony. The duration of the ceremony takes nine nights, there is vary, one or two of them last for ten nights. (…) 30´15´´ One of my nephews he is a medicineman in the Yaibechai-ceremonies …this ceremony … they usually takes place in the late autumn, maybe in the middle of November on. (…) 30´45´´ it’s the celebration of life. … at the same time coming back into harmony and rejuvenation of the mind and the spirit with holy people. 31´05´´ right about then, in the October and way up in the middle of November …right in that area all the 12 holy people, they are surrounding, they turn to face everybody within that time. … That’s the best time in the season to do that ceremony. … 31´40´´ Whatever has beam harvest that was planted in the spring, they take it out. And then sheep, animal life, deer, they bring them out, they butcher them ..32´08´´ it’s like a thanksgiving. They put everything together. That’s why they have this Yaibetchai, they dance throughout the night, all this spirit people be watching them from all four directions, will be watching everybody. Everybody has the chance top pray with corn pollen, cornmeal, sprinkle a little bit on this imitations of this Yaibetchais and pray with it. And then pray for a better life, a real good life, how being take care throughout the winter, that they have an abundance of food, medicine, herbs, which had been harvest und put away, that they can last way until spring again. That’s what this ceremony is all about.
33´10´´ E.K. Can you compare that to the Hopi dances, turtle dance.
33´45´´ K.W. In some ways there are similar. But with how they pray and what they pray to it’s different. But the stories come together here and there. … Stored for the winter, that’s what they say too. …Wenn es etwa 12 Jahre nicht geregnet hat, kann man im Sommer auch die Yaibetchai-Zeremonie durchführen.
35´10´´ E.K. Peyote. Leroy Nelson. Musik: Peyote Song .. When Christ comes on the earth, the same time Peyote was there, that there is a kind of a balance. …Und wie benutzt du es und für was in einer Zeremonie. Um eine Art Vision zu bekommen?
36´02´´ K.W.: My grandfather on my mother side, he was a herbalist, he had a lot of stories pertained to plant life, how they were sit, how they were put into Mother Earth and then how they are used and what they are used for. And he had a whole lot of different remedies with all that different herbs, that he knew.