143d1-144d4
Description of Theaetetus' character and father.
143d1-144b7
Socrates asks Theodorus about the youths of Athens: which ones seem worthy to him? Cf. Chrm. 153d2-5.
Theodorus replies that there is one in particular worthy of note and describes the youth's character. Description of character worthy of note: includes desc. of intelligence.
Note that Socrates exhibits provincial preference for Athenian youths, saying he "loves/cares for" the Athenian youth more: coming from a philosopher, one might wonder why. Where else does Socrates express such a provincial preference for home-grown youths?.
The beginning of Eucleides' composition appears to be mid-conversation.
Stern, 33, thinks that prior to 143d1, Theodorus must have mentioned some youth in Cyrene in response to a question from Socrates about promising students.
Stern, 40, says that Theodorus' pedagogical strategy is encapsulated in 143e4-5 (ἐμοί τε εἰπεῖν καὶ σοὶ
ἀκοῦσαι πάνυ ἄξιον), which explains why he declines Socrates' invitation to propose a candidate for knowledge later (XXXX).
(d.){ΣΩ.} Εἰ μὲν τῶν ἐν Κυρήνῃ μᾶλλον ἐκηδόμην, ὦ Θεό-
δωρε, τὰ ἐκεῖ ἄν σε καὶ περὶ ἐκείνων ἀνηρώτων, εἴ τινες
αὐτόθι περὶ γεωμετρίαν ἤ τινα ἄλλην φιλοσοφίαν εἰσὶ τῶν
νέων ἐπιμέλειαν ποιούμενοι· νῦν δὲ ἧττον γὰρ ἐκείνους ἢ
τούσδε φιλῶ, καὶ μᾶλλον ἐπιθυμῶ εἰδέναι τίνες ἡμῖν τῶν (5)
νέων ἐπίδοξοι γενέσθαι ἐπιεικεῖς. ταῦτα δὴ αὐτός τε σκοπῶ
καθ’ ὅσον δύναμαι, καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους ἐρωτῶ οἷς ἂν ὁρῶ τοὺς
νέους ἐθέλοντας συγγίγνεσθαι. σοὶ δὴ οὐκ ὀλίγιστοι πλησιά-
(e.) ζουσι, καὶ δικαίως· ἄξιος γὰρ τά τε ἄλλα καὶ γεωμετρίας
ἕνεκα. εἰ δὴ οὖν τινι ἐνέτυχες ἀξίῳ λόγου, ἡδέως ἂν
πυθοίμην.
{ΘΕΟ.} Καὶ μήν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐμοί τε εἰπεῖν καὶ σοὶ
ἀκοῦσαι πάνυ ἄξιον οἵῳ ὑμῖν τῶν πολιτῶν μειρακίῳ ἐντετύ- (5)
χηκα. καὶ εἰ μὲν ἦν καλός, ἐφοβούμην ἂν σφόδρα λέγειν,
μὴ καί τῳ δόξω ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ αὐτοῦ εἶναι. νῦν δέ—καὶ μή
μοι ἄχθου—οὐκ ἔστι καλός, προσέοικε δὲ σοὶ τήν τε σιμό-
τητα καὶ τὸ ἔξω τῶν ὀμμάτων· ἧττον δὲ ἢ σὺ ταῦτ’ ἔχει.
144.
(a.) ἀδεῶς δὴ λέγω. εὖ γὰρ ἴσθι ὅτι ὧν δὴ πώποτε ἐνέτυχον
—καὶ πάνυ πολλοῖς πεπλησίακα—οὐδένα πω ᾐσθόμην οὕτω
θαυμαστῶς εὖ πεφυκότα. τὸ γὰρ εὐμαθῆ ὄντα ὡς ἄλλῳ
χαλεπὸν πρᾷον αὖ εἶναι διαφερόντως, καὶ ἐπὶ τούτοις
ἀνδρεῖον παρ’ ὁντινοῦν, ἐγὼ μὲν οὔτ’ ἂν ᾠόμην γενέσθαι (5)
οὔτε ὁρῶ γιγνόμενον· ἀλλ’ οἵ τε ὀξεῖς ὥσπερ οὗτος καὶ
ἀγχίνοι καὶ μνήμονες ὡς τὰ πολλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὰς ὀργὰς
ὀξύρροποί εἰσι, καὶ ᾄττοντες φέρονται ὥσπερ τὰ ἀνερμά-
(b.) τιστα πλοῖα, καὶ μανικώτεροι ἢ ἀνδρειότεροι φύονται, οἵ τε
αὖ ἐμβριθέστεροι νωθροί πως ἀπαντῶσι πρὸς τὰς μαθήσεις
καὶ λήθης γέμοντες. ὁ δὲ οὕτω λείως τε καὶ ἀπταίστως
καὶ ἀνυσίμως ἔρχεται ἐπὶ τὰς μαθήσεις τε καὶ ζητήσεις
μετὰ πολλῆς πρᾳότητος, οἷον ἐλαίου ῥεῦμα ἀψοφητὶ ῥέοντος, (5)
ὥστε θαυμάσαι τὸ τηλικοῦτον ὄντα οὕτως ταῦτα διαπράτ-
τεσθαι.
143d1 Εἰ μὲν ..., τὰ ἐκεῖ ἄν ... ἀνηρώτων, εἴ τινες ... εἰσὶ...: unreal rotasis + unreal apodosis + indirect question introduced by εἴ.
143d1 and 5 ἐκηδόμην and φιλῶ: nearly if not synonymous. Look into?
143d2 τὰ ἐκεῖ … καὶ περὶ ἐκείνων: does this ἐκείνων refer forward to τινες? Are both the neuter τὰ ἐκεῖ and περὶ ἐκείνων picking up the earlier ambiguously gendered τῶν ἐν Κυρήνῃ? or are they all persons except τὰ ἐκεῖ?
143d3 γεωμετρίαν ἤ τινα ἄλλην φιλοσοφίαν: Socrates includes geometry in philosophy here. Stern, 37, says he excludes it by omission at 143e1-2.
143d4-5 νῦν δὲ ἧττον γὰρ ἐκείνους ἢ τούσδε φιλῶ: why is Socrates provincial in this way? Part of the big picture of why Socrates preferred to be put to death in Athens rather than go out and benefit other Greeks in exile.
143d4 ἐπιμέλειαν ποιούμενοι: periphrasis of ἐπιμελούμενοι. Indirect middle (Sm.§1722). Similar periphrases with ποιέομαι at 168d1, 169c9-d1, 172d5, and e2. Perhaps expand search beyond Tht.?
LSJ s. ἐπιμέλεια lists several parallels with med. ποιεῖσθαι, and under the verb ἐπιμελέομαι lists several passages for pursuing an art, skill.
Note to keep so I know I looked into it, but discard later, unless I look beyond Plato and find something: with prepositional peri phrase instead of add’l genitive because of genitive τῶν νέων. (the following results of search for epimel- near peri in plato found that peri + acc. occurs in R. once and >1 in Lg. and Plt: peri + gen. in Prot. once. Other than that, mostly with gen. obj. w/o peri. Worth looking at beyond Plato?
· Plt. 279a2 τῆς περὶ τὰς πόλεις ἐπιμελείας
· Plt. 281c9 τῶν ἐπιμελειῶν ὁπόσαι περὶ τὴν ἐρεᾶν ἐσθῆτα,
· Plt. 310b10 τῶν περὶ τὰ γένη ποιουμένων ἐπιμέλειαν τούτων πέρι
· Alc. I 119a9 (περὶ σαυτοῦ)
· ἐπιμέλειάν τινα ποιεῖσθαι
· Prot. 326e2 τοσαύτης οὖν τῆς ἐπιμελείας οὔσης περὶ ἀρετῆς
· R. 451d8 πᾶσαν ἐπιμέλειαν ἔχειν περὶ
· τὰ ποίμνια;
· Lg. 764d2 τῆς περὶ ταῦτα
· ἐπιμελείας
· Lg. 807c8 ὁ περὶ τὴν τοῦ σώματος
· πάντως καὶ ψυχῆς εἰς ἀρετῆς ἐπιμέλειαν βίος εἰρημένος
· Lg. 813c2 ὃς τῶν τε περὶ μουσικὴν
· τῶν τε περὶ γυμναστικὴν ἐπιμελούμενος
· Lg. 927d5 περὶ τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν τῶν ἐπιτρόπων
· Lg. 932b5 τῶν περὶ γάμους γυναικῶν ἐπιμελουμένων
· Lg. 951e2 ὁ περὶ τῆς παιδείας πάσης
· ἐπιμελητὴς
· Ep. 311e3 περὶ τούτου
· ἡμεῖς ἐπιμελούμενοι
143d4-6 νῦν δὲ ... καὶ μᾶλλον ἐπιθυμῶ ...: καὶ adverbial modifying μᾶλλον.
Yield of search in Plato for kai mallon “even more” rather than “and more”:
· Phd. 99c4 καὶ μᾶλλον ἅπαντα συνέχοντα (perhaps, but also perhaps “and more”)
· Prm. 135c3
· Phlb. 22d5 καὶ μᾶλλον ἔτι
· La. 189e2 (perhaps “also more” rather than “even more”)
· Grg. 498e8
· Grg. 499a7, a8
· R. 537a1
· Lg. 671e7 (perhaps)
· Lg. 891b6
· Ep. 318a3
3 of 10 in early: synonymous and unambiguous ἔτι μᾶλλον “even more” 39X in Plato, 11 “early.”
143d4 ἧττον γὰρ ἐκείνους ἢ τούσδε φιλῶ: a parenthetical remark justifying the main clause’s thought.
143d4 γὰρ : GP 71.
143d5: ἡμῖν: dative of advantage/disadvantage indicates an interested party. The 'ethical dative' is a form of this dative that is more familiar in tone: cf. KG I.420, 423, Sm. §1481, 1486.
143d6: ἐπίδοξοι γενέσθαι ἐπιεικεῖς: KG I.195 claims fut. inf. is the rule with verbs of saying or thinking referring to future occurrences, while aor. inf. is rare, but offers many instances of aorist inf. in particular with εἰκός. There are no other cases of an infinitive dependent on ἐπίδοξος in Plato, but of 23 fifth-sixth century instances of ἐπίδοξος + inf., 8 have fut., 5 have aorist, and 10 have present inf. Cf. Sm. §1865-1868.
143d6: ἐπιεικεῖς: LSJ II.2. compares this passage to Lg. 957a7 for ἐπιεικής applied to persons in a non-moral meaning (i.e. intellectual capacity, as the context here dictates): in Plato, all other uses applied to people have clearly moral application.
143d8 συγγίγνεσθαι: other words for such "association" are συνεῖναι and συνδιατρίβειν. The association can range from informal to ______. Cf. Bailly ad Thg. 127a9. Stern, 40, attaches great import to these words. cf. also next note.
143d9-e1 οὐκ ὀλίγιστοι : although litotic οὐκ ὀλίγ- in the positive degree occurs frequently from Homer onward, this is the only classical Greek example of the superlative. The next examples are Galen de Methodo Medendi, 10 page 941 line 14, and Aelius Aristides, Ars Rhetorica 1.14.1.1 line20.
Platonic uses of οὐκ ὀλίγ- in the positive degree are: Euthph. 9b4, Phd. 70b2, Plt. 292c6, Smp. 218e5, Alc. I, 123a8, Alc. II, 149a4, Chrm. 164a5, La. 182c7, Euthd. 274d6, Grg. 461b1, Mx. 240b3, R. 369b3, 429d7, 504e8, Lg. 770c3, 779e4, 836b5, 957a7, Ep. 310 e3, 315c8, 333b1.
143e1 πλησιάζουσι: when people are the subject, a verb used in Plato of both student/youth approaching teacher/elder (as here) or teacher/elder approaching student/youth (144a2), conversation between equals (Cri. 53c5, La. 188a6, R. 409c8), erotically approaching other people (Smp. 195b4 and Phdr. 255a6), erotically approaching truth (R. 490b5, 496a5), approaching philosophical learning (non-erotic) (498a1), casual interaction or even mere copresence (La. 187e2), and getting near to animals (Men. 80a6). Apparently a generic, flexible verb of "approaching" without specific connotations as to good/bad, erotic/non-erotic, hostile/friendly, purposive/casual, or between people of different/same age or learning or authority. Investigate ὁμιλῇ, (en)tugxanw (143e2 and 5), and bring them all together somewhere in discussion of synonyms.
143e1 καὶ δικαίως: “and justly, at that,” or “and rightly so”, phrase used in same way (i.e. with non-connective/non-necessary καὶ and parenthetically) by Plato at Plt. 257b6 and Phdr. 258e5. ANY OTHER such uses of Kai to tie this to?
Similar kai dikaiws outside of Plato (8th-5thc. on TLG): in some of these the kai is connective.
· D. in Aristogeitonem I, 85.3 (as afterthought at end of sentence)
· Isoc. de Bigis 38.6 (Διὸ καὶ δικαίως: parenthetical in mid-sentence, like the next instance)
· Isoc. de Pace (orat. 8) 4.1 (in middle of sentence, but kai not obviously connective)
· Isoc. Philippus (orat. 5) 123.7 (modifies previous thought and forms apodosis for following protasis)
· Isoc. Panathenaicus (orat. 12) 261.1 (beginning a sentence, not just modifying previous thought)
· X. Anab. 7.1.29.4 (similar to Tht. passage: added as an afterthought that modifies preceding phrase)
· X. Cyropaedia 2.2.14.2 (also similar, but in dialogue picking up previous speaker’s thought)
· Aeschines in Ctesiphontem 133.3 (εἰ καὶ δικαίως parenthetical)
· Arist. Metaphysica 982b28 διὸ καὶ δικαίως: mid-sentence
· Amphis Kock fragment 30 line 7/Meineke Pla fragment 1, line 7: (καὶ δικαίως τοῦτό γε·/ ἅπαντες ἀνδροφόνοι γάρ εἰσιν ἑνὶ λόγῳ) the kai is connective here, but the phrase is parenthetical: averb cannot modify τοῦτό!)
· Theopompus Volume-Jacoby#-F2b,115,F fragment213 line11: parenthetical aterthought, kai is connective
· Dinarchus, In Aristogeitonem, section 15, line 3: afterthought parenthetical, kai connective.
· Menander, Dyscolus, 727: afterthought, parenthetical, kai connective
· Menander, Epitrepontes, 249: isolated as a line by a character: similar to afterthought, parenthetical, kai connective
143e1 and 5: ἄξιος and ἄξιον: omitting a form of εἷναι is frequent with adjj. such as ἄξιος (KG I.40, Sm. §944c): 3rd p. sg. or pl. are much more often omitted than other forms (Sm. §§944-945). ἄξιος is more often personal (as at e1) than impersonal (as at e5).
Could do search to find frequency of impersonal/personal as well as omission of "to be."Search for ἄξι- in Tht. yields: 145b2 (impersonal, "to be" omitted), 145a11 (impersonal, "to be" omitted), 160e8 (personal, participle "to be" expressed), 162e7 (personal, "to be" expressed), 163c4 (impersonal, "to be" omitted), 167d1 (personal, "to be" omitted), 187c7 (impersonal, to be omitted), 210b9 (personal, to be expressed (γεγενῆσθαι).
This passage has three forms of ἄξιος: significance?
143e1-2 τά τε ἄλλα καὶ γεωμετρίας ἕνεκα: accusative of respect and gen. + ἕνεκα with same meaning (anything to say here, build out of this?).
143e1 γεωμετρίας: NP s.v. Mathematik, Geometrie says that by Aristotle's time, Geometry was certainly a separate discipline from geodesy. Also says that Theaetetus probably discovered the last two of the five regular solids (i.e. the octahedron and the icosahedron): source? Given importance of these solids in Timaeus, this needs work.
13e2-3 εἰ δὴ οὖν τινι ἐνέτυχες ἀξίῳ λόγου, ἡδέως ἂν πυθοίμην: simple past protasis with potential optative apodosis. CHECK THIS.
143e4 Καὶ μήν: 'inceptive-responsive' καὶ μήν accepting an invitation to speak, almost confined to Plato and Aristophanes (GP καὶ μήν 5).
143e4-5 ἐμοί τε εἰπεῖν καὶ σοὶ ἀκοῦσαι: for this wordy and formally polite setting up of audience and performer of a speech or presentation with antithesis of saying v. listening, cf. Phd. 107a7 εἰπεῖν ἢ ἀκοῦσαι at 107a7, Smp. 173b8 καὶ λέγειν καὶ ἀκούειν, Ti. 26e7-27a1 χρὴ λέγειν μὲν ὑμᾶς, ἐμὲ δὲ … ἀντακούειν, Lg. 631a8-b1 σε ἔτ’ ἂν ἐβουλόμην διελόμενον λέγειν αὐτός τε ἀκούειν, 781d4-5 ἐθέλω λέγειν … εἰ καὶ σφῷν συνδοκεῖ ἀκούειν.
143e5 ὑμῖν: ethical dative (KG I.423 and Schwyzer II.149 cite this passage; cf. Sm. §1486): cf. 143d5 ἡμῖν and n. Switch to plural from sg. σοὶ immediately before.
Why does KG call this one Ethical, but the one above not?
143e5 τῶν πολιτῶν: Socrates had not asked about citizens. Likely, that was understood. Any reason why not? Any reason why Theodorus would himself mention citizens? Is this referring to the youths as citizens (ie. partitive) or as belonging to the citizens (possessive)?
οἵῳ ὑμῖν τῶν πολιτῶν μειρακίῳ ἐντετύχηκα: AND BTW, what exactly does it mean?
143e6-7 καὶ εἰ μὲν ἦν καλός, ἐφοβούμην ἂν σφόδρα λέγειν, μὴ καί τῳ δόξω ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ αὐτοῦ εἶναι: cf. Smp. 210b-c, where Diotima requires the lover to value beauty of soul over bodily beauty. Clearly Theodorus does not want to be considered biased by his emotions: how to prove whether this is just referring to a favorite “golden” student or a more personal emotion? Stern, 41, suggests this also concerns his livelihood: if he has the reputation of being smitten with students, that might hurt his bottom line (how? and why believe Stern’s claim?).
143e7 δόξω: KG I.259 says δόξω does not assimilate in mood to the unreal imperfect leading verb because it is not included in the unreal part of the thought expressed. Verbs in clauses dependent on a verb of fearing, however, never assimilate (Sm. §2185d and KG ibid. lower down on the same page). (ERASE THIS PARENTHESIS IF YOU DON"T FIND ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS CLAUSE: WHY THE HECK DOES KG MENTION IT EXPLICITLY, THEN, as if it were not a fearing clause? They even explicitly call it a final clause.)
143e7 ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ: Not found outside of Plato and Aristotle, according to TLG search, up through 5th century: Prt. 318a3-4 Ἱπποκράτης γὰρ ὅδε τυγχάνει ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ ὢν τῆς σῆς συνουσίας, Lg. 841c4-6 τὸ … γεγονὸς ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ, Ep. VII 338b6-7 φιλοσοφίας ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ πάλιν εἴη γεγονὼς, [] Erx. 405e2-6 ἐν ἐπιθυμίαις τε καὶ δεήσεσίν ἐσμεν …. πολλῶν ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ τε καὶ δεήσει ὤν. Aristotle uses ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ twice (EE 1239b37 and Rhet. 1393a2). What does this formulation add that a simple verb plus gen. does not have? is this part of a larger pattern of periphrases?
143e7-8 καὶ μή μοι ἄχθου: cf. Antiphon de Caede Herodis 46 καὶ μή μοι ἄχθεσθε (also parenthetical), Lycurgus Oratio in Leocratem 128 καὶ μή μοι ἀχθεσθῆτε ὦ ἄνδρες (apodotic), Claudius Aelianus de Natura Animalium μή μοι ἀχθέσθω (apodotic). ANything to say about καὶ in parentheses: cf. 144a2 καὶ πάνυ πολλοῖς πεπλησίακα and 143e1 καὶ δικαίως.
143e8 σιμότητα: Investigate SNUBNESS