Closed Court 21 June - Session 2

AUSCRIPTAUSTRALASIAPTYLIMITED

ACN 110 028 825

T:1800AUSCRIPT(1800287274)

TRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS

O/NH-784703

THEHONOURABLEM.WHITEAO,CommissionerMRM.GOODA,Commissioner

INTHEMATTEROFAROYALCOMMISSIONINTOTHECHILDPROTECTIONANDYOUTHDETENTIONSYSTEMSOFTHENORTHERNTERRITORY

EXTRACTOFTRANSCRIPTOFPROCEEDINGSDARWIN

9.35AM,WEDNESDAY,21JUNE2017

MRB.DIGHTONappearswithMRT.GOODWINasCounselAssistingMRBELLACHappearsforDD

MSPARSONSappearsforAI

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EXTRACTOFTRANSCRIPTOFPROCEEDINGS(9.36am]

MRDIGHTON: Commissioners,wecommenceinclosedcomtfortheevidenceof

5,whohasbeenallocatedthepseudonymDD.witnessatthemoment.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thankyou,

AFFIRMED(9.36am]

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Now,is someonegoing tositnear

15shecomfo11ablewith---

MRDIGHTON: Wecance1tainlyofferthat,ifthatwouldbe---

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Would youliketohave anyonesitnearyou?---No,

20that'sokay.

You'refme?---Yeah.

MRDIGHTON:

MRBELLACH:

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Doyouappearfor---

30MRDIGHTON: My apologies.

MRBELLACH:Ido,thanks,Collllllissioners.Myname'sBellachandIappearforandthat'sontheinstrnctionsofMsClareMcKenzie,who'sasolicitorwiththeNAAJAcivilsection.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thankyouverymuch.MR BELLACH: Thankyou.

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEFBYMRDIGHTON(9.37am]

MRDIGHTON:,doyourememberdoingastatementfortheRoyal

45Commissioninwhichitsetoutsomeofyomstory?---Yes.

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Andifyoujustlookatthescreenthat’sto yourleft,doesthatlooklikethestatement?---Yes.

Andyouseethedatethereis11June2017;isthatright?---Yep.

Commissioners,Itenderthatstatement.COMMISSIONERWHITE: Exhibit536.

EXHIBIT#536STATEMENTOFDATED11/06/2017

MRDIGHTON: Wehaveyourstatement,andwe’vereaditcarefully,andwe

15wouldliketoaskyousomequestionsaboutsomeofthethingsthatyoumentioninit.Firstly,howmanychildrendoyouhave?---

Andoneofyourchildrenis yourson?---Yes.

20Andishe?---Yes.

Andhowoldishenow?--.

years.And,whilehewasgrowingupwith yourotherchildren,waslikethe

25othersordidyounoticesomethingabouthim?---No,ashewasgettingolderhewasgettingabitmorethingtolookafter,liketherewascertainthingsIhadtodo.Yeah,justthatIusedtoseehimdoingthingsthatnormalkidsdon’tusuallydo.Sowe–I’veaskedtoseeadoctor.Theschoolrecommendedoneappointmentwiththedoctor,becauseI’vebeentellingthemabouttheADHD,butnoonereallylistened

30backthen,yeah.

Andwhen yousay“backthen”abouthowlongagowasthatwhen youfirstnoticedit?---When wasaroundaboutthreeorfour.

35Anddidanyofyourotherchildrenevergettakenawayfrom youbytheDepartment?---No.

Itwasjust?---Yeah.

40CanItakeyouto,andwhenyouwerelivingin.And wasitaboutthattimethat startedtohavesomeissueswithsniffing?---Yes.

Andhowdidthatstart?---Therewasalotofbullyingintheschool,eveninthestreetwelivedin.He–Iusedtoletmykidsgooutand play,then foundthesekids

45fromcommunities,startinghangingoutwiththem,runningintoandtheywerejustdoingsillythings.

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Andwhen youstartedtonoticeit,whatwouldyou dototryandstophimorhelphim?---Well,Ijusttakehimhome,trykeepaneye onhim.ThatwasallIcoulddo.

Andisthataroundthetimethatthedepartmentfirststartedtobecomeinvolvedwith5 ?---Yes.

Andwhentheyfirstbecameinvolvedwhatweretheysayingto youatthetime,whatdidtheywanttohappen?---Well,alltheysaidwastheyweregoingtotryandlookatarehabfor .At thetimeitwasn’tavailable,buttheywere goingto get into

10,whichtheyendedupdoing,butitdidn’tlastverylong.

Andwhenthatopenedupwhatdid you havetodotogetdownthereto ?---Ihadtogetonabus,godownanddrop off,jumponthebusandgobackto

Anditdidn’tlastverylong?---Yeah.

Whathappenedthere?---Ihadtogetbackonthebusthenextdayand gobackandpick up.

Andlateronin,movingforwardabit, you gotintoabitoftroubleyourselfandhadtogotoaprogram at ?---Yes.

Andwaswithyouat?---Yes.

And,after youhadbeenatforacoupleofmonths,hadsomeissuesandwasaskedtoleave?---Well,wewenttherefor inthebeginning---

Right?------to,meandmyfamily.Therewasalotofproblemwith

30intherewhilewewasthere.Justpeopledidn’tunderstandhowtodealwithhim.And,yeah,itwasjustgettingtoomuchfor .IbeenaskingDCFforrespiteswhileIwasin inthebeginning,buttheycouldn’tdoit.

Didtheysaywhyitcouldn’thappen?---Theysaidtheyonlytakekidsintocarefor

35monthsoryears,notdaysorweeks.

Andfortherespite,you wereaskedfor,wasthat–howlongwasthatfor,foraday?---Iwasonlyaskingforatleastoneortwoweeks.

40Right?---Buttheycouldn’tdothat.

Andwhenleftyoucouldn’tgowithhim?---No,Icouldn’t.

Andsoitwasatthatpointthenthathadtogointocare?---Yes.

Andhewentintoaresicarefacilityoragrouphome?---Yes.

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Andwheredidyouwantto go,ifhecouldn’tbewith you at?---Well,Iwantedhimtobeinaplacewheretheycanlookafterkidsproperly,keepaneyeonhim,especiallywith– sniffedalotbeforewemovedinto ,butthatdidn’thappen.

WhatdidtheDepartmenttellyouaboutthegrouphomebeforewent

in?---Nothing,theyjustsaiditwasin.Theycouldn’ttellmeanythingelse,theycouldonlygivemeaphonenumber.

10Didyouwanttohavesomeabilitytocontactorseehim,or---?---Yeah, Iwantedto–especiallywhenhe’sinhisangrymoods,that’swhenIwantedtoreallytalktohim.Iusedtoringthecarer’shouse,halfofthetimetheywouldn’treallytalk.Theywouldjustsaywhathewantedtoandhanguponme.Iwould getsofrustratedandangryI’dberinging–becauseIgavemeMumandsistersthe

15numbers.They’dringup.Therewasnothingtheycouldreallydoeither.Theywouldn’tgivethem anythingandtheywouldjust–that’salltheywoulddo.Justsaywhathewantedandjusthungup.

Wouldrunawayorgomissingwhenhewasatthat---?---Yes.

---grouphome.AndifhewasmissingwouldtheworkersatthegrouphomeortheDepartmentcallyoutoletyouknow?---No.

Andwasitthecasethenthatyouwouldjustfindoutlater?---Yeah,Iwouldfindout

25maybethenextdaythroughoneofthecaseworkerfrom,theywouldringme.Thatwasusuallyit.

Andwhydidyouwanttoknowassoonasithappened?---BecauseIcouldtalktohim,settlehimdownbeforehecouldtakeoffanythingbecausehelistenstome,

30yeah,butthatneverusedtohappeninanyofhiscarers’place.

Anddoyouthinkwasproperlylookedafterwhilehewasinthatgrouphome?---No.

35Whynot?---Well,hewasrunningoff.Hewasstillsniffing, yeah.

Didyouhavenoticeof–well,didyounoticewhetherornotsniffinggotbetterorworse?---Itjustgotworse.

40Whydoyouthinkthatwas?---Becausehewas–hewas–theycouldgoout,dowhattheywanted.Thatwasit wouldhavestoppedsniffingprobably,allthattimewasin ,probablytheonceortwice.Itwasreallygoodlikethat.Butassoonashewentintothatcareandhefoundouttheywasallowedtogoout,comebackwhenhewanted,that’swhenhejustwent,gotonthespray,anditjustgotbadagain.

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AndifIcanfastforwardalittlebitmore,toearlyin.andisitthecasethatbythistime.hadsta1iedtogetintoabitoftroublewithpoliceandhadbeeninandoutofDonDale?---Yes.

5Andwassniffingstillaproblemthen?---Yes,itwasworse.Andwereyouhyingtogethelpwith-forthat?---Yes.

Whatwereyoudoing?--- wouldtalktoDCFover andoveraboutthesniffing.They

10wouldtellmetheywouldlookintootherrehabsandotherplacesfor.andeverytimetherewasameeting,alltheseplaceswasn'taplacefor-anymore.Itwasbecausemaybeof behaviour,orhisage,ortherewasakidtherethatwouldn'tmixwith .Itwouldn'tberightfor-andtheyoungfellowtobetogetheroryeah,itjust-peoplewouldn'ttake k.

AndduringthattimeyousaidyouweretalkingtoDCFallthetime.Wereyouaskingforanythingelselikesuppo1ioreducationorparentingcourses,thingslikethat?---Yeah.Well,theyweresupposedtobedoingmeaparentingcourse afterIfinished Thatneverhappened. Iwassaying,like,sincethey'rechild

20protection,theyalwayssayingmysonneedshelp,heneedsthis,heneedsthat,but

theynever evertt·iedtodoreallyanythingtohelphim. Yeah,anditjustfrnstt·atedmemore.

The-inabout

25room?---Yes.

youfound lotso

AndyoutookaphotoofthemandshowedittoaworkerattheDepartment?---Yep.

Whywasthat?---Becauseitseemliketheyweren'tlisteningtomewiththesprays,

30-doingitinthehouse,andinhisroombecausetheytoldme,"When-playsuplockhiminhisroom."Notlockhim,butjustputhiminhisroom.Itoldthem,"Youcan'tdothistokidstheirageanymore,becausetheyareolder."Andbecauseofhissniffmggotreallybad,everythinggotreallybad.Hewasn'tlisteningtomeanymore.SoIdecidedtotakeaphotoof ,showedittooneofthe

35workers,theygotacopyofit,tookitbacktotheoffice.Threedayslatertheycamebackandtoldmethattheyweretaking. intocare.

Didtheysayanythingtoyouinthethreedaysinbetween?---Well,whentheyfirstcame round,Ijusttoldthemwhyaretheydoingthisnow,becauseI beenasking

40themforhelpforthelasthowmanymonths,andtheyjustsaid,"Itjustcametothestagenowthatwehavetotake-

Andwhen-andyounoteinyourstatementthatthewordsthattheysaidtoyou,thatyouhadbeenaskingforhelpforsolong, "Whyareyoudoingthisnow"?---Yeah.

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Howdid you feelatthattime?Whatwas---?---WellIwasabitangrywiththem,veryupset,becausealltheyweregoingtodoisputmysonbackinanotherplace,likewhattheydidin ,andthat’swhyIdidn’twantthat.

5Andthat–afteralittlebitlonger,inabout,that’swhathappened,wentintoanothergrouphome?---Yep.

AnddidyouatthattimesayanythingtotheDepartmentlike,“Lookwhathappenedlasttimehewenttoagrouphome:heshouldgosomewheredifferent,”orsomething

10likethat?---Well,whentheycameandtoldmetheywasgoingtotakeIsaidIwouldthinkaboutitandtheycameback–they,

Itoldthem Iwouldthinkaboutit,andIthoughtaboutit,andIwasn’tgoingtoagreewiththemunlesstheywouldputmysonsomewhereoutoftown.Thatwasmymainthing.

Didtheysayanythingaboutwhythisgrouphomemighthavebeendifferent?---Whichone?

The,thesecondone?---No,theydidn’treallysayanythingaboutthe

20house.

Werethereanyparticularthings youwantedforifhewasgoingto gointocare?---Well,Iwantedhimbackinschoolstraightaway.Iwantedhim–Iwantedthemtokeepacloseeyeonhim,sohewouldn’tgosniffingagain,becausesince–

25whenIfoundoutwherethehousewas Igotveryupset,becausethat’swhereusedtohangoutwhichwas ,that’swherethesniffingwasbadand

himrunningawayhere.AndassoonasIfoundthatoutIwasveryupset,because

andeventuallyhedid–startedtakingoffand

sniffingagain.

Whenhewentinto,werethereanyAboriginalworkersinthehome?---No.

Werethereanymaleworkersinthehome?---No.Becausethat’swhatIwantedfor

35andallthat–allthetimeweworkwithDCF, IwantedatleastAboriginalworkerssomesort,maybemen,woman,didn’tmatter,butthatneverwasthecasefor .Itwasalwayswhiteormixedraceanditwasalwayswomen.

Andwhenthishappened,wereyoutalkingtotheDepartmentfrequentlyevenafter

40hehadbeentakenaway?---Yes.

Andwhenwasinthegrouphomewouldhe,likewiththelastoccasion,runawayfromtheplacement?---Andanotherthingwiththeplacementisthattheworkersweregettingyoungerandyoungerandthat’swhen startedtonotlisten

45tothemanymoreandjustgoingbacktothesameway.

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Andwhen.wouldmnaway,wouldtheworkersortheDepartmentcallyoutoletyouknow?---Atfirsttheyweren'tdoingthat.Theywerejustwaitingon-tocomebackorthepolicebring-back,andthenifI'dringuptheywouldsay,"Oh,

-takenoff."Ortheywouldringmethenextmorningandaskmeif-had

5comeroundtomyplace.

Anddoyouknowif-when-lefttheplacement,sayatnight,wouldhe-wouldanyonefromthegrouphomeorfromtheDepartmentgooutlookingfor

him?---Well,theysaythattheydidafterawhile-wasinthere.I'mnotsure.

10Buttheyusedtojustringthecopsandwait.

The-inthenextmonth,andthisisin-,soonlyafewweekslater,theDepaiimentsta1tedletting-comebacktoyouduringtheday?---Yes.

15Andalittlebitlateronagainyouthenwentintoasharedresponsibilityorder?---Yes.Anddoes.livewithyounow?---Yes.

Ifyoulookbacknowatthe-athowthathappenedoverthetwoyeai·soreventhe18

20months,aretherethingsthatyouthinkshouldhavedone-beendonedifferentlyorbetterthatmighthaveavoidedsomeofthethingsthathappened?---Yeah.Well,liketheyweresaying,heneededhelp,heneededeverything.Theyshouldhavedoneallthisforhimbackthen,butnothing,itjust-theyjustmoreorlesssetoutalotofthingsfor.andexpectedhimtodothesethingsandalotofthetime,becausehe

25washeavyintothespray,hewouldn'tdoanything. He'djustnmaway.

Andthe-oneachoccasionthathewastakenintothegrouphomebecauseofissueswithhissniffing,didhissniffingimproveduringthosetimes?---No.

30The-youmentionedbeforeabouttheparentingcoursesthatyouaskedforafteryoufinished-;hasthatoccurred?---No.

IsitsomethingthatyoustillasktheDepaiimentabout?---Yes.

35Lookingfo1wai·d,whathelporsuppo1t,now,doyouthink.needs?---Well,Ithinkhestillneedssomeso1tofAboriginalpeopleworkingwithhimatleast,becausehelistenstothemmorethananything.Maybefindhimsomerehabthat'sgoingtotakehimbackbecauseeve1ytimetheDepa1imentcomeroundtoseeus,

-getsupsetandhemnsoffandhegoestohaveasniff,andit'sbecausewe've

40hadalotofthinginthelastthreeweeks,so.hasbeensniffingabit.AndlikeIsaytoDCF:whycan'tyoumobreallytalktorehabs,reallytalktosomebodytodosomething?Yeah.

Andovertheperioddidyou-whatwasthelevelofschooling,orhowmuchschool

45was-abletogotoduringthattime?---Whichai·ea?

School.Didhegotoschoolmuch?---Whenhewasincai·e,no,hedidn't.

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Andsothat’swhilehewasinthegrouphomes?---Whilehewasinthetwogrouphomes,heneverwentintoanyschooling.

Okay?---Andthat’swhatIwantedstraightawaywhenhecameoutofDonDale,

5becauseIwasspeakingtotheforhim.Theysaidthat

wasstillontheirlist,thattheywouldstilldo, ifwouldgoback.Theyjustsaidthattheywerewaitingon–thefirsthousewas,theycouldn’t get outofbed.That’swhy weren’tgoingtoschool.Hewasn’tevendoinganyofhisdoctors’appointmentwiththematall.Yeah.Theycouldn’tgethimtodoanything.

10Thesecondhouse,hewasalittlebitbetter,listening,becausehewasinDonDaleforafewmonthssohewasoffthespray.Yeah.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Howwas–howwasgoingatschoolwhenhelivedwithyouinitially?---Well,helovedhisschoolingfromwhenhewaslittleright

15upuntilweleft,butinthe,that’swhenhemetthesekidsandstartedtakingoffwiththem.

Andhehad–hedidhavesomeproblems,yousayinyourstatement,beforethat?---Yeah.Therewasalotofbullying,so---

Andhehadsomebehaviouralissues?---Yeah.

Younowknow,ofcourse,thatheinfacthadacondition---?---Yeah.

25---thatprobablyexplainedthatbehaviour,didn’tit?---Yeah.Becauseyouknow,alotofthisthingwasgoingoninschool.Whydidn’ttheDepartmentgetontomebackthenaboutanything, youknow?Theyjust–Idon’tknow,thewayIseeitwiththemsometimetheywaitforthingstogetveryworse,andthentheytryjumpin,becausethat’swhathappenedtomyson.Whenhewassniffing,Iwouldtellthem,

30andtheywouldn’tlistenuntilIhavetoshowthemstuff.Thentheywouldlisten.

Yousayinyourstatementinparagraph121,afteryougotthatsharedparentalresponsibilityorderwiththeDCF,thathewentoutto ?---Yes.

35Hehadsomuchsuccesswiththeir,buthedidn’tlastthereforverylongatall.Didyouhearwhattheproblemwasfor

?---I’veheardfrompeople,like,thatwasthere,theysaidthatwaswalkingawayand .

40Hewas---?---Hewastryingto

andIwassaying,“Well,there’ssomethingthatthey’redoing,that’swhyhe’sbehavinglikethis.”He’stoldmetherewasalotof–theyweredoingalotofthings

.Hetoldstaffmemberstotellthe

,theywouldn’tlisten,everyonewasjustlaughingathim,andthenhe

45andthentheyjustsaidthathehadtoleave.

Andbwas abitofaproblemforhimtoo.Soitseemsthatthat’snottherightsortofenvironmentforhim?---It’s–it’smoreorlessthewaypeopletreathim.It’s–that’showheworks.Ifyoutreathim good,he’llbegood.Youknow, youtellhimsomethingyouhavetokeepthatand yeah.Which–withthe

Hereallyneedsavery–fromwhatyou’resaying,heneedsaverydisciplined,orderlylife?---Yeah.

15Withlotsofrulesthateveryonekeeps?---Yeah.

Isthatwhat youfindtryingtomanagehim?---Yeah.He’sgettingthereslowlybutyeah,sincehecomebackthere’sbeennotroublewiththepolice.Theschooling,Ihadtofindtutoring.Ibeentalkingtoschooling,toDCFabouthisschoolingover

20andoveragain.Theywerewaitingonpeopletogetintouchwiththemfromschoolsandstufflikethat,butthatwasalways–theywerewaiting.SosomenightsIlayinbed,Igetonmyphone,Ilookintotheinternettofindstuffthat Icandowith ortodealwith .Icomeacrossthetutoringthing,becauseincaretheyalwaysofferedit,butitnevereverhappenedwith ,thetutoring.SoIasked

25“Well,whataboutthistutoringplacehere,youcanfindoutwhereitis.”Soshemusthavewentbackandlookeditupandfoundoutitwasin sowewasdoingthat.And goessometimesbut, yeah.

COMMISSIONERGOODA: Anddoesthatseemto---?---Well,he---

Itwouldbe,obviously,oneononetutoring?---Yeah,itis,andhedoesreallygoodwhilehe’stherewith yeah,it’sjustthattheselastthreeweeksjustbeentoomuchforhimsohehasn’tgoneand shedoesn’tfind.She’llstillkeep

onaslongaswants.So,yeah.

Whatsortofthingsishebeingtutoredin?---Well,allthingsmainly.Like,really---Likeliteracy,numeracy,reading?---Yeah,reading,writing,whatever,yeah.

40Okay.

MRDIGHTON: Thosearemyquestions,thankyou,Commissioners,unlessyouhaveanyfurther.

45COMMISSIONERWHITE: Doyouhavesomequestionsthatyouwouldliketo

---

MRBELLACH: No.Thankyou..COMMISSIONERWHITE: ---ask?

5Thankyouverymuchforcomingintotellusyourstoryof yourdealingswiththeDepartment?---Yeah.

Andthedifficultiesyou’vehadwithandtryingtogethelpforhim.Wehopethatthingsdogetabitbetterfor you?---Yes.Gettingthereslowly.

COMMISSIONERGOODA: Andwehopethatwewillmakesome–wewillmakesomerecommendationsabouttheefforts youmadetogetsomehelp?---Yeah.Ijust

–yeah,Ithinktheyneedtolistenmoreinsteadofjustdoingthingsandexpectingpeopletodoit.ThatwasalotoftheproblemsIhad, youknow,themnotlistening,

15 and,thecaseworkerwegotnow,she’salittlebitokay.isokaywithher.Hedidn’tlikehisfirstcaseworker,becauseshewasthemainonethatputusthroughalotofthestresswewentthrough,yeah.

Thankyou.

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