STATES OF JERSEY
OFFICIAL REPORT
TUESDAY, 11th SEPTEMBER 2007
1.ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR THE PRESENT MEETING
1.1Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.2Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Deputy P.N. Troy:
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.3Senator L. Norman:
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.4Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):
1.5Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:
1.6Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:
1.7Senator L. Norman:
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.8Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):
1.9Senator S. Syvret(The Minister for Health and Social Services):
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:
Senator S. Syvret:
1.10Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):
1.11Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:
1.12Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier:
1.13Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin:
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.14Senator F.H. Walker:
Deputy A. Breckon:
Senator F.H. Walker:
1.15Senator S. Syvret:
The Deputy Bailiff:
1.16Senator F.H. Walker:
1.17Senator S. Syvret:
1.18The Connétable of St. Helier:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
QUESTIONS
2.Written Questions
2.1THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING BY deputy j.a martin of st. helier REGARDING THE MIX OF HOUSING AT LE SQUEZ:
2.2THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY SENATOR B.E. SHENTON REGARDING THE DRAFT ANNUAL BUSINESS PLAN:
2.3THE CHAIRMAN OF THE ENVIRONMENT SCRUTINY PANEL BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE WASTE REVIEW:
2.4THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING PRIVATE CARE HOME COSTS:
2.5THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE BY DEPUTY R.G.LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING YOUTH PROVISION IN TOWN:
2.6THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING BUS PHONE TEXTS:
2.7THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST.BRELADE REGARDING THE FUTURE OF THE WESTERN FIRE STATION
2.8THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY CONNÉTABLE A.SCROWCROFT OF ST. HELIER REGARDING FUNDS FOR THE MILLENNIUM TOWN PARK:
2.9THE CHIEF MINISTER BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE COSTS OF A NATIONAL GALLERY:
2.10THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST.CLEMENT REGARDING THE POLICING OF JERSEY LIVE:
2.11THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE IMPACT OF G.S.T. ON STATES DEPARTMENTS:
2.12CHAIRMAN OF ENVIRONMENT SCRUTINY PANEL BY DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING FUTURE REVIEWS:
2.13THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST.CLEMENT REGARDING THE POTENTIAL USE OF TASER GUNS BY THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:
2.14THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST.CLEMENT REGARDING THE ISSUE OF FIREARMS CERTIFICATES BY THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:
3.Oral Questions
3.1Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the effective scrutiny of the Annual Business Plan:
Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):
3.1.1Deputy G.P. Southern:
3.1.2Deputy G.P. Southern:
3.1.3Deputy A. Breckon:
3.2Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the preservation of oak trees at Goose Green Marsh:
Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):
3.2.1Deputy D.W. Mezbourian:
3.3Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding effective tax rates for the financial services industry:
Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):
3.4Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the signature of a Ministerial decision:
Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):
3.4.1Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:
3.5Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding G.C.S.E. exam results:
Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):
3.6Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding breast screening for women aged over 70:
Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):
3.7The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding share transfer legislation:
Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):
3.7.1The Deputy of St. Martin:
3.7.2Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:
3.7.3Deputy A. Breckon:
3.8Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Housing regarding the impact of granting more (j) category licences:
Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):
3.8.1Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
3.8.2Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
3.8.3Deputy G.P. Southern:
3.8.4Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
3.9The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding policing costs for Jersey Live:
Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):
3.9.1Deputy of St. Martin:
3.9.2Senator B.E. Shenton:
3.9.3Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement:
3.9.4Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade:
3.9.5Deputy for St. Martin:
3.9.6Deputy J.A. Martin:
3.9.7Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:
3.10Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the future use of the Overdale site:
Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services)
3.10.1Deputy S. Power:
Senator S. Syvret:
3.11Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the maintenance of the Rue des Prés Trading Estate:
Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):
3.11.1Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:
3.11.2Deputy J.B. Fox:
Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:
3.11.3Senator J.L. Perchard:
3.11.4Senator J.L. Perchard:
3.11.5Deputy C.J. Scott Warren of St. Saviour:
3.12Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the deployment of TASER guns:
Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):
The Deputy of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):
3.12.1Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:
3.12.2Deputy S.C. Ferguson:
3.12.3Senator B.E. Shenton:
3.12.4Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:
3.12.5Deputy S.C. Ferguson:
3.12.6 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:
3.12.7Deputy J.B. Fox:
3.12.8Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:
4.Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Social Security
The Deputy Bailiff:
4.1Deputy K.C. Lewis:
Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):
4.2Deputy G.P. Southern:
4.3Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
4.4Deputy R.G. Le Hérrisier:
4.5Deputy A. Breckon:
4.6The Connétable of St Helier:
4.7The Connétable of St Helier:
4.8Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:
4.9Deputy J.A. Martin:
4.10Deputy J.A. Martin:
5.Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Chief Minister
5.1The Connétable of St Helier:
Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):
5.2The Connétable of St. Helier:
5.3Senator B.E. Shenton:
5.4Senator J.L. Perchard:
5.5Senator J.L. Perchard:
5.6Deputy J.A. Martin:
5.7The Connétable of St Helier:
5.8Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville:
5.9Deputy G.P. Southern:
5.10Deputy G.P. Southern:
5.11Deputy S.C. Ferguson:
5.12Deputy A. Breckon:
Deputy A. Breckon:
5.13Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:
5.14Senator J.L. Perchard:
The Deputy Bailiff:
PUBLIC BUSINESS
6.Minister for Health and Social Services: dismissal (P.115/2007)
The Deputy Bailiff:
6.1Senator W. Kinnard
6.2The Connétable of St Helier:
The Deputy Bailiff:
6.3The Deputy of St. John:
6.4Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
The Deputy Bailiff:
6.5Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):
The Deputy Bailiff:
6.5.1Senator S. Syvret:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED
The Deputy Bailiff:
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT
Senator S. Syvret:
Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
Senator M.E. Vibert:
Senator S. Syvret:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
Deputy G.P. Southern:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
6.5.2Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:
6.5.3Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:
6.5.4The Deputy of Grouville:
Senator F.H. Walker:
The Deputy of Grouville:
6.5.5Deputy D.W. Mezbourian:
6.5.6Senator M.E. Vibert:
6.5.7Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier:
6.5.8Deputy K.C. Lewis:
6.5.9The Connétable of St. Peter:
6.5.10Deputy J.A. Martin:
6.5.11Deputy G.P. Southern:
6.5.12Deputy S.C. Ferguson:
6.5.13Deputy S. Power:
6.5.14Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
6.5.15Deputy P.N. Troy:
6.5.16The Connétable of St. Helier:
6.5.17Senator J.L. Perchard:
6.5.18Senator B.E. Shenton:
6.5.19Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:
6.5.20Senator P.F. Routier:
6.5.21Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:
6.5.22Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:
The Deputy of St. Martin:
Senator S. Syvret:
The Deputy Bailiff:
6.5.23Senator S. Syvret:
6.5.24Senator F.H. Walker:
Senator S. Syvret:
Senator F.H. Walker:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator S. Syvret:
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator F.H. Walker:
ADJOURNMENT
The Deputy Bailiff:
The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.
1.ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR THE PRESENT MEETING
The Deputy Bailiff:
Members will have seen that there are a number of matters which various Members have asked be debated at this sitting. If members agree the Greffier and I thought it might be convenient to deal with that at this stage under A so that everyone knows where they are and what matters are or are not to be debated. So if members agree, I suggest we take it at this stage. Now if members turn then to the relevant part of the Order Paper it can be seen that there are, in effect, four matters which are asked to be taken. The first is P.98/2007- Deputies: extension of term of office to 4 years- lodged by Deputy Troy. The second is Goods and Services Tax: price marking legislation- P.99/2007- lodged by Senator Norman. The third one is the Draft Financial Services (Amendment No.3) (Jersey) Law200-- P.100/2007- lodged by the Minister for Economic Development and the final one is P.115/2007- Minister for Health and Social Services: dismissal- lodged by the Chief Minister.
1.1Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):
May I just amend that list? I am happy to withdraw the Financial Services one until a later sitting.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Very well, thank you. That is withdrawn. Now I suggest that we take each in turn; the first one P.98, Deputy Troy?
1.2Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade:
I would just ask the Assembly, Sir, if they would be content to take this which came about as a result of our last debate when the Connétables proposed a four-year term and this ties-in with that, Sir, on future reform.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Do you wish to explain to members why you wish to take it at this particular sitting?
Deputy P.N. Troy:
Yes, Sir, because of the timeframe really that if it is approved then P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) needs to move forward on the legal side to make all of the changes to tie in with the Connétables’ term, Sir.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Is that proposition seconded? [Seconded] Does anybody wish to comment? If not, I suggest we take these separately. Do Members then agree to take P.98? Yes? Very well, members agree to take P.98. Next one is Goods and Services Tax Price Marking Legislation- P.99- by Senator Norman. Senator?
1.3Senator L. Norman:
I am comfortable whether this is taken today or left for a couple of weeks. The only thing I would say, Sir, I do not want the Treasury Minister to use any delay to suggest that I am delaying the introduction of G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax). I think this is an important issue before we debate the Appointed Day Act and providing that the Minister for Economic Development feels that he has sufficient time to bring forward price marking legislation if my proposition is successful I do not mind it being delayed. If he has not got time then I would maintain the proposition to have it on today’s sitting, Sir.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Is the proposition seconded? [Seconded] Does anybody wish to comment?
1.4Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):
I would accept a delay of a week or two, Sir, but I am anxious that there is a minimum of uncertainty as far as this issue is concerned. In the event that Senator Norman was successful with his proposition and that price marking legislation had to be brought, I wanted to ensure that that did not delay of introduction of G.S.T. as I suspect it might. So a delay of up to a couple of weeks would be acceptable, a prolonged delay, I feel, would not be acceptable.
1.5Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:
The Senator asked me if it was going to delay bringing in price marking legislation, but the fact is that price marking legislation could be brought but I do not believe that that would give sufficient time for retailers to be given a clear steer as to whether or not there is going to be inclusive or exclusive pricing. So it is the issue of the certainty for retailers that is the most important. If the Assembly was to agree Senator Norman’s proposition I still think one would be in a difficulty of giving retailers sufficient time. I am relaxed about it being two weeks if that is what the Assembly wishes. I think the other notable point is that the Scrutiny Panel was carrying out a review and their report is due to be out in two weeks’ time and that may well sway members’ view of whether or not they wish to take it at this sitting or in two weeks’ time.
1.6Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:
Certainly, Sir, it is nice to have an introduction from the Minister for Economic Development but that is the case, we are scheduled to publish our report on inclusive or exclusive price marking by 25th September, so a fortnight’s time. It seems singularly inappropriate to debate this in advance, we have still got - I think it is going to be a very tight deadline schedule but nonetheless the report will be published by 25th September.
1.7Senator L. Norman:
Well, firstly, can I say in response to the Minister for Economic Development, I think certainty for consumers is the most important issue, it is certainly much more important than certainty for the retailers. But in view of those comments, I am quite happy that the debate be moved to 25th September.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Very well, so we withdraw it from today’s agenda. Finally P.115, the proposition by the Chief Minister. Chief Minister, do you wish to make any comments?
1.8Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):
Can I say first of all that I think it is a tragedy and an avoidable tragedy that we are here today at all. But the facts are that a significant amount of damage has been done to a considerable number of people by the behaviour and conduct of the Minister for Health in recent weeks. We have got to the stage where because of the number of people he has, I have to say, attacked, insulted and generally made it impossible to work alongside, he cannot possibly any longer function as the Minister for Health. Sir, we cannot be in a position any longer - this whole issue has already been going on now for nearly two months - we cannot be in a position any longer where we allow that to happen. We must have, it is essential for health services and children who need our protection in particular that we have a functioning Minister for Health and it is essential that we begin the rebuilding process from the damage that has been done as soon as possible. Sir, the information on the report and proposition, which is all about the Senator’s conduct and behaviour, it is not about our child protection provision, that is a matter for the various reviews that have, or will be, established. All the information has been known to the Minister for Health and indeed much of it has been in the public domain and certainly known to members for some considerable time. There is absolutely no reason that we should delay this debate. If it was about child protection services that would be a different matter and of course I would expect the Senator to have every opportunity to put his case in full. But he will have that opportunity in relation to child protection at the reviews, indeed has already had the first opportunity. So this is not about child protection, this is entirely about the Senator’s conduct. As I said, Sir, it gives me no pleasure, I am intensely sad that I have to bring this proposition but having got to this stage, having already been in the middle of this controversy, this crisis for eight weeks we cannot delay any longer. We really need, whatever the outcome may be, to grasp this nettle and take this debate today. So I would ask members to agree to that and in so doing, in common with well-established precedent on votes of no confidence which is normally that they are taken within two weeks and then taken as first item of business, Sir, I would ask that it is taken today and is also taken as first item of public business.
1.9Senator S. Syvret(The Minister for Health and Social Services):
I would like to oppose the motion put forward by the Chief Minister, I think on two principal grounds which are easily understood. Firstly, there has been an absence of due process. This meeting that the Council of Ministers had at which they discussed and took the decision to seek my dismissal was an unscheduled meeting for which I had had five days’ notice and indeed the case against me, as it were, all of the great bulk of material that they rely upon was, in fact, given to me less than 24 hours before that meeting took place. So even had I been able to attend this unscheduled meeting I would not have had sufficient time to deal with the supposed case against me. As would be clear to anybody with the faintest grasp of jurisprudence, that is not giving the person a fair hearing. I can point to a direct consequence of the failure of the Council of Ministers to give me sufficient time to wait until the scheduled meeting in that they have gone into print in their proposition with information that is demonstrably wrong, on which I have some very learned expert opinions which demonstrates the information that they have been supplied with to be grossly inaccurate in the most important of ways. So I believe that the debate should not go ahead today. I do not believe I have had sufficient time to prepare my defence. I do not believe that the Council of Ministers have had sufficient time to decide on the basis of the facts and the evidence, what the situation is. I would also, on my second ground for opposing the debate today, point out that the Bailiff has refused to allow my formal ministerial comments to be printed. He cites a Standing Order which says that people that should not be named in them, members of the public should not be named in such comment or debates unless it is unavoidable and necessary that they should be so named. In this case it clearly is unavoidable and necessary that people should be named and indeed this is a procedure that is used and recognised in the House of Commons. I have been reading my copy of Erskine May so I am aware of my rights and the rights to free speech within the legislature and I would certainly hope to be able to take up with the Bailiff why he has exhibited this bias in not allowing me to print, as formal comments, all of the relevant evidence in relation to the debate today. Indeed much of the material I wish to have printed as formal comments did, in fact, address directly some of the grounds cited by the Chief Minister in his report and proposition. So on those grounds I would oppose the Chief Minister’s proposal and ask that this matter not be debated today.
The Deputy Bailiff:
Senator, can I just say my understanding is that the Bailiff did, however, direct that all the material you wanted circulated in your report, which would only have been on members’ desks this morning of course in any event, should be photocopied and has made it available, I think, for you to distribute? So, in other words, the position, as I understand it, is that members will have the very material which you wish to place before them at the same time as they would have had it been a report.
Senator S. Syvret:
No, Sir, I am afraid that things are not that simple. The decision of the Bailiff to refuse to allow my comments to be published as an official document deprives them of parliamentary privilege. Now this means then that the media outside the Jersey Evening Post, Channel Television, Radio Jersey and so forth will not be able to report the relevant material, much of which is very important, I think, both from a public interest point of view and from enabling members of this Assembly, and indeed the public at large, to understand the reason why my concerns have accumulated so much over the years and why finally my patience is exhausted. So the refusal of the Bailiff to allow my comments to be printed, his decision to not allow a level playing field, deprived those comments of parliamentary privilege which I consider to be quite a grave matter. Even if I am in a minority of one in these debates, still as an elected member one has rights to be treated fairly under the procedures of this Assembly and not to have such bias exhibited.