The Tyrant and the Philosopher , Living in a Democratic City

Book 9



The Tyrant and The Philosopher , Living In a Democratic City

Socrates: (then I said) 1 The tyrannical man himself , certainly remains to be considered ,

 ’

both in what manner he is transformed out of a democratic man , and then , having arisen ,



what kind of person he is , and what kind of life he lives , whether miserable or blessed .



Adeimantos: (he said) Yes , he then , still remains .

 .

Socrates: (then I said) Do you know then , what I still yearn for ?

’’

Adeimantos: What is it ? ( ;)

Socrates: We do not appear to me to have sufficiently distinguished , with respect to the desires ;



of what kind they are , and how many ; and while this is defective , the inquiry/search which

b

we make , will be less evident .



Adeimantos: (to which he then said) May it not still be done in a beautiful/harmonious way ?

’ ’

Socrates: Entirely so . And bear in mind , what it is indeed , that I wish to see in them . It is then , ’

the following . Of those pleasures and desires that are not necessary , some appear to me to be



outlaws ; these on the one hand , I dare say are probably ingenerated in every one ; but on the



other hand , by being corrected , both by The Laws , and by the better desires , in conjunction



with Reason , on the one hand , in some people they are either altogether eliminated , or a few



remain that are weak . But on the other hand , in others they are more powerful and numerous .



Adeimantos: (he said) Then , will you also say what these are ?

c

Socrates: (then I said) Such as those that become stirred-up in sleep ; when on the one hand ,

’

the other part of the soul is asleep , which is rational and tame/gentle and governs in that soul ,



while the other part which is beastly and untamed/savage , having been filled-full with



either food or strong-drink , jumps-about and drives-away sleep , then goes about searching

(

to fill itself with the things to which it is accustomed . You know , that in such a soul , its desires

’ 

dare to do everything , by having been let-loose and having been disengaged from all shame and



Mindfulness . For , as it imagines , it does not hesitate , attempting to have sexual-intercouse



with a mother , nor anyone else , whether man , God or beast ; nor to kill anyone ,

d

nor to abstain from any sort of food , and in one word , is not lacking in neither folly 

nor shamelessness .



Adeimantos: (he replied) You speak most truly . ( .)

Socrates: But on the other hand , I suspect , that when a person’s Condition is indeed Healthy ,



in and of Itself , and thus live in a Soundminded/Sober way , and then go to sleep , after having



awakened on the one hand , their rational part , and having Feastedit with Beautiful Reasonings e

and Good Inquiries , they attain to The One of their IntellectWithin themselves , while allowing 

the appetitive part of the soul , neither to be in-need nor to be filled-full , so that it may be lulled- 

to sleep , and that it give no disturbance to the best part of the soul , either by its joy or grief ,



but to allow it to Search , Itself by Itself , Singularly Pure , and , by this Yearning , to Apprehend

’’

what it also knows not ; either something of what has existed , or of what nowexists , or



what will exist hereafter ; and thus in the same way , by having calmed the spirited part of the



soul , by not allowing it to be angry about anything , nor to lay down to sleep while being



passionately agitated ; then , on the one hand , by having quieted these two parts of the soul , ’

while on the other hand , having bestirred the third part of the soul , in which Mindfulness



resides , in this manner , the soul may take its rest ; and you know that The Truth is especially

’’

Touched/Apprehendedin such an aspect , and thus , The Visual Manifestations of its Dreams

b

are least likely to be lawless .



Adeimantos: (he said) Thus I believe it to be perfectly the case .



Socrates: Accordingly then , on the one hand , we have been carried a little too far in mentioning



these things . But on the other hand , what we want to be Intellectually-perceived , is this : That

’

there exists in everyone , a certain species of desires , which is terrible , savage and lawless ,



even in some of us who are reputed to be entirely moderate . Accordingly then , this species



becomes manifest in their dreams . Therefore , see , if there appears to be anything , in what 

I say , and if you agree .



Adeimantos: But I do agree . ( .)

Socrates: 2 Then now , Recollect what kind of person we declared the democratic person

c 

to be . Thus their up-bringing from their infancy was somehow determined by their ‘education’



under a miserly/conservative father , who valued the acquisitive desires alone ; but held in low-



esteem , those that were unnecessary , but that arose only for the sake of amusements and



finery . Or is this not the case ?



Adeimantos: Yes it is . (.)

Socrates: Thus , being conversant with people who are ‘most refined’ , and who are full



of those desires (lawless) which we just now described in detail ; by being impelled towards



unbridled-insolence , and every form of outrageous behavior , they then form a hatred 

of their father’s conservative ways . However , having a better natural-disposition than those who



corrupt them , and by being drawn in both ways , they settle into a manner which is situated

d

in the middle of both ; and as they imagine , ‘surely while benefiting moderately of each of them ,



I live a life neither illiberal nor lawless’ , having become a democratic person ,



out of an oligarchic person .



Adeimantos: (he said) Yes , this was and is our opinion , about such a person .



Socrates: (then I said) Now then , again assume that such a person has already become old ,

’

and in turn , that their young son is brought-up in those ways of theirs .



Adeimantos: I assume it . ( .)

Socrates: Now then , also assume , that the same things happen to him , just as they also



happened with their father . That he in turn , is drawn into all kinds of lawlessness , however

e’

it is called by those who draw him away , ‘the most complete liberty’ ; and that his father and



all their house-hold come to their help against these ‘in-between-appetites’ , while the others

’

in turn , lend their help in the opposite way . But when those dire magicians and tyrant-makers

 ’ 

have no hope of keeping in their power the youth in any other way , they contrive to engender



in him , a certain love that presides over the passive and the readily distributed desires at hand ;



which love , is a certain large and winged drone ; or do you think that the love of such things



is anything else ?



Adeimantos: (to which he then said) As far as I am concerned , it is nothing else than this .

’ ’

Socrates: Is it not the case then , that when the other desires make a humming noise about him ,



full of their incense-fumes and oils-of-myrrh , and crowns , and wines , and those unbridled/



unconstrained pleasures , which belong in such ‘communions’ , and by still magnifying and 

feeding them to the utmost , they add ‘the sting of craving’ to the great winged drone , and then



truly , the protector of the soul with madness as its bodyguard then stings the soul to madness ; 



b (As poor Io was relentlessly driven by the gadfly/jfb)

for if ‘the protector’ finds in the youth himself any opinions or desires which may be useful



and which yet retain any sense of shame , ‘the protector’ kills them , and casts them out of him ,

’

until he may be ‘cleansed’ of Soundmindedness , and thus invite even more madness .



Adeimantos: (he said) A perfect description , of the formation of a tyrannical person .



Socrates: (then I said) Take notice then , that since ancient times , Love is said to be a tyrant ,

’’

because of such things ?



Adeimantos: (he said) Probably so . ( .)

Socrates: (I said) Is it not the case then , O friend , that a drunk , also has something

c

like tyrannical spirit ?



Adeimantos: He has indeed . ( .)

Socrates: And surely , the person who is mad , and mentally-disturbed , indeed undertakes



and hopes , to be able to govern not only men , but likewise The Gods .



Adeimantos: (he said) Very much so . (’ .)

Socrates: (then I said) Thus , O divine man , the tyrannical person comes into existance

’

at the height of completion , when either by natural-disposition or by pursuits or by both ,



he becomes intoxicated , and erotically-in-love and melancholy .



Adeimantos: 3 On the one hand , as it is also likely , such a person arises in this manner .

d 

Socrates: But how then , do they live ?



Adeimantos: (he replied) As witty people say , ‘this , you will also tell me’ .



Socrates: (I continued) I shall surely tell . For I suspect that after this , there are feastings among

’

them , and revellings , and banquetings , and mistresses , and all such things , as may be expected



among those which , Love the tyrant dwelling within , thoroughly-governs everything in the soul .



Adeimantos: (he said) Necessarily . ( .)

Socrates: Take notice then , do there not blossom-forth every day and every night ,

’

many and dreadful desires , in need of many things ?



Adeimantos: Many indeed . ( .)

Socrates: Accordingly then , if they have any provisions , they are soon spent .



Adeimantos: How then could they not be ? (’ ;)

Socrates: And after this , there is the borrowing and withdrawing of substantial sums of money .

e

Adeimantos: What else ? ( ;)

Socrates: But certainly , when everything fails them , is there not a necessity that the desires ,

’

on the one hand , nestling in the soul , shall give constant and passionate cries , but on the other

’

hand , the tormented people themselves being driven , as if by stings , both by the other desires ,



and more especially , by the love itself , leading all the others as its body-guards ,

’

shall rage with frenzy and search for , whatever anyone may possess , which they are able



to carry away , by fraud or violence ?



Adeimantos: (he said) Extremely so . (’.)

Socrates: Surely then , they must necessarily be plundering from every quarter , or else



be tormented with great agonies and pains .



Adeimantos: Necessarily . ( .)

Socrates: Take notice then , that just as their freshly-sprung pleasures took full possession

’

of the old-ones and took from them what they had , in the same manner , he shall also



think it ‘proper’ that since he is younger , he should have more than his father and mother ,



and take-away from them ? And if he has spent his own portion , consume that of his parents ?



Adeimantos: (he said) Certainly then , why not ? ( ;)

Socrates: Surely then , should they do not allow him , will he not , on the one hand , first

b ’

attempt to steal from and defraud his parents ?



Adeimantos: Entirely . ( .)

Socrates: But on the other hand , whenever he is not able to do this , will he not in the next place



seize it , and by violence ?



Adeimantos: (he replied) I think so . ( .) (Hesitation or loosing attention . jfb)

Socrates: Surely , O wonderful man , when the old man and the old woman oppose and fight ,



will he not act reverently , and beware of doing anything tyrannical ?

’

Adeimantos: (to which he then said) I for my part , am not at all confidant , about the safety

’

of the parents of such a person .



Socrates: Then by Zeus , O Adeimantos , does it seem to you , that for the sake of an unnecessary

c ’

newly beloved who has also just become his mistress , such an offspring , would strike



their anciently beloved and necessary mother ; or that for the sake of one who has just become his



newly beloved youth of the hour , who is not necessary , strike , his ‘way past his prime’ and yet



necessary and elderly father , who is also the most ancient of all his dear friends , and to give



them over to be enslaved by those others , if he should bring them into the same house ?

’

Adeimantos: (to which he then said) Yes , by Zeus , I do indeed !

’ 

Socrates: (then I said) It seems to be quite a ‘supremely blessed event’ to beget a tyrannical son .

’

Adeimantos: (he said) Entirely so indeed . (’ .)

Socrates: But what then , when the possessions of the father and mother fail such an person ;

d’ 

even now , when there is the greatest swarm of pleasures assembled in him ? Shall he not first



on the one hand , lay his hands on someone’s house-wall , or the coat of someone walking-about 

late at night , then on the other hand , after this , shall he not clean-out some temple ? And surely 

in all these actions , those desires newly liberated from slavery , as the body-guards of love ,



shall be the masters , along with love , over those old opinions he had formed from his youth ;

’ 

those regarded to be just concerning what is Beautiful and what is ugly . These desires which



before , on the one hand , were only let-loose in their dreams while asleep , when he was as still e

under The Laws and under his father and under a democratic form government in himself . But 

now on the other hand , being tyrannized by love , such as he rarely was , when he dreamt ,



such shall he always be , when awake . And so , neither from any horrid slaughter , nor food ,



nor deed , shall he abstain , but that tyrannical love within him , living in every kind of anarchy

’

and lawlessness , in as much as he is ‘the sole monarch’ , leading the one it possesses , as well as 

their city , to dare everything , in order that he may support himself , and the applause of those



about him , which have entered in part , from without , from ill associations , and partly

’

having been released and liberated from within , by supporting the same habits as his .



Or is not this , the life of such a person ?



Adeimantos: (he said) It is this one . ( .)

Socrates: (then I said) And should there be but a few such people in the city , and the rest

b ’

of the multitude is sober/of a sound mind , and if on the one hand there is a war somewhere else ,



they go out and serve as body-guards to some other tyrant or assist him for wages ; but if



on the other hand , they arise while there is peace and quiet , they will certainly commit many

  

a minor mischief in the city .



Adeimantos: What kinds do you mean then ?

 ;
Socrates: Such as stealing , breaking-in to houses , cutting purses , stripping people



of their clothes , temple robbing , and kidnapping . Then , when they are able speakers ,

’ 

they also turn to giving false testimony , and in turn to taking gifts .



Adeimantos: (he said) You call these small mischiefs , if there are but a few such persons .

c 

Socrates: (then I said) What is small , is small in comparison to what is great . And surely

’

all those things, concerning the tyrant , when compared to the wickedness and wretchedness



of the city , as the saying goes , do not come near the mark . For surely when many such people

’

arise in the city , and others that accompany them , and they also perceive their own number ,



at that time these are the very ones who , through the ignorance of the people , establish as tyrant ,



that man , among themselves who shall especially ‘himself in himself ’ , also possess ‘the greatest 

and mightiest’ tyrant , within their soul .

d

Adeimantos: (he said) That is probable indeed ; for he will be the most tyrannical .



Socrates: Is it not actually the case , if , on the one hand , they willingly submit ? But if , on the



other hand , the city will not give-way , then , just as he chastized his mother and father at that



time , so now again will he chastise his country if he is indeed able ; while bringing in new

’

companions , and under subjection to these new ones , he will surely keep enslaved and fed , 

his ancient , beloved motherland and fatherland , as the Cretans say ? And this , will surely be



the result of such a man’s desire .



Adeimantos: (to which he then said) It will indeed be this in every way .

e’

Socrates: (then I said) Is it not the case then , that the following is indeed how such people

’

arise , in private life , and before they rule ? In the first place , by the company which they keep ,



either by conversing/asscociating with their own flatterers and with those who are readily-at-hand



to serve them in everything ; or if they need anything themselves , by being-subservient to those

(

they asscociate with , daring to assume every appearance as friends ; but having gained their



purpose , they act as strangers ?



Adeimantos: Yes , very much so . ( .)

Socrates: Accordingly then , on the one hand , they live their entire life without ever befriending 

anyone , thus on the other hand , they are always , either masters or slaves , but the tyrannical



nature never tastes of True Freedom and Friendship .



Adeimantos: Entirely so .( .)

Socrates: Take notice then , may we not correctly call such a person , untrustworthy .

’ 

Adeimantos: How could we not ? (’ ;)

Socrates: And certainly , he is indeed , as unjust as it is possible for a man to be , if indeed



we were right in our previous agreements , when we agreed upon what the nature of Fairness is .