Texas House of Representatives

Texas House of Representatives

Committee on Culture, Recreation, and Tourism

Committee Broadcast 10 March 2009 2:11 – 4:50 p.m.

Transcript of HB 1500 Discussion

Transcript does not include “fillers” (“uh…”).

Committee Members Present, in order seated left to right (as viewed by audience):

(not yet, these are just in alphabetical order)

Dawnna Dukes

Mark Homer (Chair)

Donna Howard (Vice Chair)

Tracy O. King

Tim Kleinschmidt

Edmund Kuempel

Larry Phillips

Brian McCall

Kristi Thibaut

[Media stream picks up shortly after HOMER begins speaking.]

HOMER: [This meeting of the Committee on Culture, Recreation, and Tourism] will come to order. Card-call the roll.

Chairman Homer? Here.

Vice Chair Howard? Here.

Chairman Kuempel? Here.

Chairman McCall? Here.

Representative Dukes.

Representative King? Here.

Representative Phillips? Here.

Representative Thibaut? Here.

Representative Kleinschmidt? Here.

[Unintelligible] Mr. President, first let me say before we get started we have a…we’re fortunate to have a new staffer with us this first, starting this week …Jan [last name unintelligible] up here to our left, and she will be the person you’ll give…you’ll come to if y’all have a witness affirmation as well. And she is one of our student volunteers that is a constituent of our vice chair Howard, and [unintelligible]. And members let me apologize: last time in my absolute fear of not screwing up when I got started I didn’t allow y’all…if anybody wanted to add any comments they wanted to make to keep this [unintelligible] off. You know our illustrious charter chair over hereif he had anything to say to the membership—anybody? Alright, we’ll leave that, we’ll leave that alone.

First thing we’re gonna do today is, in the interest of Mr. Smith’s time, he has someone else is, Carter Smith, Executive Director of Parks and Wildlife, we’re gonna ask him to come up and kind of update us on what’s happening. So, if you would, sir…

[Carter Smith gives update on some TPWD current issues for approx. 19 minutes]

Discussion begins at approximately 20:50 into broadcast.

Alright, let’s move on to new business. We’re going to, we’re not going to go in the order it’s listed, I’m gonna wait to hear my bill last. We’re gonna hear first [unintelligible] House Bill 1500, by Representative King and allow Representative King to explain the bill. [unintelligible] sir.

KING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members for the opportunity to bring House Bill 1500 to your attention today. Current law in Texas prohibits the hunting or collecting of reptiles and certain insects from Texas roadsides or right-of-ways, but it hasn’t always been that way. It’s my understanding that prior to last session, 2007, you could do that, and this bill simply returns the law to the way it was prior to 2007. You will hear in the testimony that there are a lot of people that get a great deal of enjoyment and pleasure for themselves and their families hunting snakes,amphibians, turtles, and all that kind of stuff, and there’s apparently more of them on the side of the road than I ever imagined. [laughter]. And so, [unintelligible] a lot of times, particularly in West Texas, Representative [Guy Engle?]’s area, walking around and finding ‘em, they’ve offered to take me with them, I’ve declined, but it is a very, very neat sport and it’s something that they do and it’s very educational, and this bill simply returns the law to the way it was prior to 2007. I’d be glad to answer any questions from the Committee. If not, we can get back, get to the witnesses.

[laughter as a rubber snake is thrown on a female committee member].

KING: We have an enthusiast over here. [more raucous laughter]

KING: Alright. It’s always good to have a sense of humor.

[Unintelligible] Don’t really care about [unintelligible] [laughter] [unintelligible]

You always have been snakey [unintelligible]. There’s gonna be somebody out there be able to identify that by scientific name. [laughter] Okay?

[unintelligible]

FEMALE COMMITTEE MEMBER: I hate snakes and you know that.

[unintelligible]

KING: That’s not a snake!

[unintelligible]

KING: I would like to reserve the right to close.

HOMER: And, you know what, [unintelligible] members, any questions? I apologize for that representative [other representative says “I just couldn’t pass that up”] …King. Alright, there being none, Chair calls David Sinclair. Ah, there he is.

SINCLAIR: [unintelligible] thought you were saving me for last?

HOMER: David, Major Sinclair, [unintelligible] follow the boss’s lead and your…[unintelligible]wants to be shown neutral.

DAVID SINCLAIR approaches the stand approximately 23:30 into the broadcast.

SINCLAIR: Mr. Chairman, members, I’m Major David Sinclair, Chief of Wildlife and Fisheries Enforcement, TexasParks and Wildlife. Be glad to answer any questions you might have about the bill.

Anyone have any questions?

Yeah. Do you know why the law was changed last session? Was that at the Parks and Wildlife’s request, or?

SINCLAIR: Well, there was initially a bill filed by Representative Isett and we did work with Representative Isett as well as some of the falconer community worked with him and well, you know, the whole idea was the fact that--and some people will argue this point--but the public roadway in [unintelligible] for traffic traverse the state. Move from Point A to Point B and in our minds it should be a sanctuary for wildlife. And all the other regulations and statutes prohibit the hunting of game animals, game birds, furbearing animals, everything else is protected on the public roadway but there was, and including exotic animals, they’re also protected, Chapter 62, the Code, but there was this list of nongame and critters that were not protected. They could be collected.

COMMITTEE: And so those were included in the bill last session?

SINCLAIR: Yes. They was a bit bill was read last time, any animal, any wild animal or bird.

COMMITTEE: Was it specifically directed just to reptiles, amphibians, or insects?

SINCLAIR: No sir, it was for all species were not protected.

COMMITTEE: Are there other places besides roads that reptiles, amphibians, and insects can be hunted in the state?

SINCLAIR: On any private property and that’s been one of our suggestions. Those that want to collect, they can do just like a deer hunter does or a turkey hunter, quail hunter. They can obtain permission from a landowner to do their collection.

COMMITTEE: Are they allowed to do that in state parks, do you know?

SINCLAIR: No sir, not at this time. But, you know, that’s certainly an option, that the Commission could allow that.

SINCLAIR: And so, basically, it’s your, it...this would allow people to stop, I guess, on the side of the road if there wasn’t a turnoff somewhere, I guess on the shoulder if there was one, or in the road, I mean, basically it looks like it allows hunting from a public roadway which, I mean, they’d be in the middle of the road and I’m hoping there will be some clarification about that, because there currently is a statute that prohibits hunting any animal or bird from a vehicle on a public roadway. In the past, we had advised the collectors that they needed to legally park off of the roadway, exit their vehicle, and they could do their collection. And then this bill passed, and it was moot at that time.

COMMITTEE: I guess the question I have is, if you’re in the road chasing a tarantula, just say, on some of the rural roads, and you get somebody coming around the corner, I just wonder if that creates a hazard that…

SINCLAIR: I think a part of the equation is the safety aspect of that. And to my knowledge, there’s not been any accidents and so far, that’s not … may not be one.

COMMITTEE: But this the way you understand this, this would allow, not just the right-of-way, but also in the roadway.

SINCLAIR: That is correct.

COMMITTEE: Thank you, Mr. Sinclair.

HOWARD: Yes, Rep Howard.

HOWARD: Thank you. So, it, you’re saying that there’s currently a law that prevents hunting from a vehicle.

SINCLAIR: On a public road

HOWARD: On a public road, right, so that if this were to pass as it’s currently written it would be, that would still be the enforceable statute that would say that you, even if you could do the things that were said in this particular bill, you still couldn’t do it from a car

SINCLAIR: You still could not hunt from a vehicle. That is correct.

HOWARD: But you were suggesting that that should be clarified in this bill as well?

SINCLAIR: You know, that would be helpful to law enforcement. If it were clear that a vehicle had to be legally parked off--off the roadway, they had to exit the vehicle to do any collection. And there’s a fine, you know, we get, game wardens get calls about vehicles being out late at night, and that’s when a lot of the collection... People that collect reptiles…

HOWARD: Right.

SINCLAIR: They do that at night.

HOWARD: Right.

SINCLAIR: ‘Cuz the animals come to the warm pavement, just a variety of reasons, but the fact that they’re out there at night… I lost my train of thought.

HOWARD: You’re saying that the Department’s recommendation would be that there would be clarification, that a car be lawfully parked.

SINCLAIR: Yes ma’am.

HOWARD: [unintelligible] And, is there any need for if [unintelligible] night, is there any need for any kind of protective [unintelligible—another member is trying to suggest ideas] vests, flashlights, lights, is there anything else? I’m not a hunter of reptiles, amphibians, or insects, so I can’t say how it’s done. If [unintelligible—SINCLAIR is trying to answer—“ You bring up a good point”] I don’t know.

SINCLAIR: Perhaps reflective vests of some sort…

HOWARD: Uh-huh, a reflective vest.

SINCLAIR: …Perhaps would be good.

HOWARD: I guess the concern that I think we should [unintelligible] talk about is safety of others and safety of the hunter as well.

SINCLAIR: Right.

HOWARD: Right So…

SINCLAIR: Mm-hmm. I remember what I was gonna say and it’s the fact that historically these people, the people that do the collection, they use their vehicle to locate the reptiles.

HOWARD: Oh, OK.

SINCLAIR: So they, they’re driving up and down the road. They’re, oftentimes they’re using a spotlight. [HOWARD says something unintelligible] Oftentimes they’re using their headlights on their vehicle, they’ll turn, shining the cut banks across roads.

HOWARD: Mm-hmm. [audience is now audibly talking amongst themselves after SINCLAIR’S comment]

SINCLAIR: So they’re...the movement on the road, and then we’ve always told them that if they put themselves in a hunting situation where they’re using their headlights, or working a spotlight, that they may be subject to being filed on, on hunting from a vehicle. So, if it could be clarified, that’d certainly be helpful for law enforcement.

HOWARD: Thank you very much.

HOMER: OK, Representative Dukes, did you…[unintelligible]

DUKES: Yes sir, did you indicate that it’s already in statute that it is illegal to hunt from a car?

SINCLAIR: That is correct.

DUKES: OK. And the provisions that were changed last session, I believe it was House Bill2414from Representative Isett, that passed as an amendment, so we actually didn’t debate it, to get input on what you were attempting to do.

SINCLAIR: Well, I guess that particular bill, Isett’s bill, made it through the House. It was amended on the House floor.

DUKES: It became House Bill 12, yes.

SINCLAIR: And it ended up in House Bill 12. And then it, that version…

DUKES: In this session, we don’t need to change the statute, just [unintelligible] to give the legislative intent.

HOMER?: Run that by me one more time?

DUKES: We’re not changing the Division Authority in law, illegal to hunt from the car, so it does not have to be reiterated in this bill, just the intent say that on the floor. But we’re not changing—he’s not changing that if it makes it [unintelligible] us to pass, cause it’s already in statute. [numerous sidebar conversations]

HOMER?: Chairman Kuempel?

KUEMPEL: It’s a [unintelligible ]Rep Isett. I could amend to change it…did Hilderbran have…?

COMMITTEE: It ended up in the House Bill

KUEMPEL: In Hilderbran’s Bill?

COMMITTEE: Yes.

[this segment is largely unintelligible due to numerous side discussions]

…I say [Harry Ridgler?], if he has any problems…

COMMITTEE: Were there cars in the State of Texas, 1910? 1902? [laughter] Have we had any problems with this up until last year however long it [unintelligible] to [unintelligible] with. I guess what I’m asking, was there a problem that we had previously?

SINCLAIR: Well, the fact that game wardens were getting called out at night answering these calls. A lot of this goes on, particularly out in the Trans-Pecos area, West Texas. And game wardens having to respond to calls didn’t know whether it was a deer hunter working a spotlight, or someone out collecting reptiles, or what they were doing.

COMMITTEE: Had it not been passed by [unintelligible] would it have been arrived [unintelligible] I’m a [unintelligible] live snakes and I find out that [unintelligible] not either that I tried [unintelligible] her. If you go out, most, I guess most of these snakes don’t move during the day? I’ve never hunted any of this stuff. So, do they come out at night? Is it more prevalent that people are hunting these at night than during the day, or?

SINCLAIR: Well, my observation is, that’s when most of the collection’s done. Either late in the evening and at night, during the night time.

COMMITTEE: Which is why, I can’t see where a game warden when they come by out there with a flashlight. They’d probably get turned in and

SINCLAIR: Correct.

COMMITTEE: They’d get plenty of calls without having to worry about that [unintelligible] problem. I don’t know if we have any problems from like I said [unintelligible] cars and buggies up until last year, during the [unintelligible] problem. There are quite a few of them around the state of Texas that do this.

COMMITTEE: If that’s the case maybe we oughta just pass a bill to make the reptiles come out in the day. [laughter]

[This segment largely unintelligible with numerous jokes and side discussion]

HOMER?: Oh, man.

HOMER?: Was that what you was wanting to add? [unintelligible]

[unintelligible]

COMMITTEE: That concludes the depths of my comments.

HOMER?: You feel free to add anything else that you’d like.

I want to ask if--does anybody have anything else. First, let me recognize Representative Joe Farias, he’s joining us with, Tracy, you…

FARIAS: Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to sit here and hear testimony. These folks have visited with me regarding this, they’re very passionate regarding their hobby. And [unintelligible] officers were…Rep King regarding this because last year, when original legislation was passed to… would allow them to be out there collecting for their snakes. I was contacted by………..Ted [unintelligible ] about that issue, and try to support them at that time, so coming back this year and trying to help him out. [unintelligible ] doing what they love to do and I want to mention, also like to mention the impact that it’s caused the economy out in those areas. These folks spend a lot of money to go out there…

HOMER?: Really?

FARIAS: And during the…pardon me?

HOMER?:: Really?

FARIAS: Yes.

HOMER?: Really?

FARIAS: Yeah, and because of the...most of those folks out there make a lot of their money during the hunting seasons, deer season, and I was in Rep [unintelligible] office last night, he just killed his trophies. But that’s were they make their money, and during the off-season, that’s when they supplement the rest of the year, by folks coming out on vacation, [unintelligible] go to the coast or they go somewhere else. Now these folks, go out there, doing what they love to do, and collect snakes as a hobby, so…

HOMER?: I’ve never seen that brochure in the hotel. [laughter]

FARIAS: That’s why I’m here today to thank you for allowing me to…

HOMER?: You’re very welcome. I...something just came to mind and I didn’t realize that this happened mostly at night, but with that said and we’re talking about headlights, and spotlights, and then people calling the game warden…if I’m...if I happened to be that person that was out searching, and help me here, and if I don’t have any firearms in my vehicle and I’m doing this, how can you establish intent on...how could there actually be an offense? I mean, I guess if a game warden came up I’m more likely to say, “I’m out looking for beer cans,” or “I lost my hubcap last night.”

SINCLAIR: If you know how to answer the questions, you may get off. But the term “hunt” is “capture, trap, take, or kill.” So, the mere fact that someone’s out there capturing by hand, or hook, or whatever, that is hunting. Just like pulling a trigger…

HOMER:: Sure.

SINCLAIR: …and shooting a gun and killing a snake, or a deer, whatever. That is hunting, and it’s up to the officer to prove that reasonable doubt that you are hunting, if it’s an unlawful activity.