Steel Valley Voices/ Lillian Katzman 1
Steel Valley Voices
Transcripts of an Interview with
Lillian Katzman on Family Lore,
Memories of the North Side,
Art Education in Public Schools, and
Jewish American Identity
Submitted to the
YSU Center for Working Class Studies by
Dr. Thomas G. Welsh, Jr., on
May 20, 2010
Cover Art: Lillian Katzman poses with the art cart she used as an art teacher at Garfield Elementary School, in Niles, OH, 1980. (Courtesy of Lillian Katzman)
Last Page: Lillian Katzman poses outside the home in which she was raised on the city’s North Side, circa 2000. (Courtesy of Lillian Katzman)
What follows are transcripts of an interview with Lillian Katzman, a retired public school art teacher who is a resident at Levy Gardens, an assisted-care facility operated by the local Jewish community. Ms. Katzman, who taught for almost 30 years, spent most of her career in the Niles City Schools. After graduating from Miami University (Oxford, Ohio) in the late 1950s, she spent several years teaching in the Cleveland City Schools. During the 1965-1966 school year, she was one of 200 teachers in Ohio who were recognized as Jennings Scholars. Apart from a small monetary prize, recipients of this honor were invited to attend six lectures by major American figures in a variety of fields. While Ms. Katzman’s achievements as an educator are indeed notable, our interview focused mainly on her experience as the youngest child of Russian Jewish immigrants. She explained that her parents, Abraham and Sophie Laskovicher Katzman, emigrated from Russia to Turkey several years after the Bolshevik Revolution. In 1923, with the help of relatives living in the Youngstown area, the Katzmans and their 15-month-old daughter, Dorothy, were able to resettle on the city’s North Side. During the interview, which took place on April 21, 2010, Ms. Katzman revealed that she serves as the archivist of her family’s historical documents and artifacts. Her tastefully decorated apartment is filled with items from her family’s past, including the following: silver objects her father had apparently received from patrons at his barbershop in pre-revolutionary Russia, a 1920s photograph of her father’s barbershop in the Youngstown Hotel, and a cup that her older sisters used to transport soup to their hard-working father, who rarely returned home for dinner. Ms. Katzman has also preserved important legal documents, including Russian birth certificates and immigration papers. Throughout the interview, Ms. Katzman was encouraged to consider ways in which her parents’ values shaped her own lifestyle and her choice of profession. –T.G.W.
Tom Welsh: I’m interviewing Lillian Katzman about her upbringing on the North Side. She’s going to be telling us a little bit about her upbringing, and her family history. Both of your parents were immigrants from Russia. Is that correct?
Lillian Katzman: Right.
Tom Welsh: And we talked about this a little earlier, but where did your parents meet?
Lillian Katzman: Yalta [a port city in present-day Ukraine]. My mother sewed for the czar [Nicholas II of Russia], and it was at a very bad time. My father probably opened a barbershop in Yalta, where he met my mother. And she was sewing, and they needed to get out of Russia. And he offered her a trip—which was the best offer she could have—to America.
Tom Welsh: So, she was actually a seamstress for the czar’s family…? Wow. And you mentioned earlier that Yalta was….
Lillian Katzman: …a seaport.
Tom Welsh: And also, that’s where the czar had his summer palace.
Lillian Katzman: Yes. So, many people…would come there in the summer, and maybe that’s where [my parents] met.[1]
Tom Welsh: And do you know what year they met, about?
Lillian Katzman: Nineteen-twenty-three.
Tom Welsh: Well, maybe a little bit earlier, because they came to the U.S. in 1923. So…about 1920, ’21?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. My mom was born in 1900.
Tom Welsh: And…why were they so anxious to leave Russia at that point?
Lillian Katzman: Well, the Jewish people were being persecuted by the Bolsheviks.[2] There was a revolution taking place. [My parents] had to get out. And they got as far as Turkey, where…my mother became pregnant with my [eldest] sister, Dorothy. And [the Soviet government] wouldn’t let my father have a barbershop. They were stealing everything that belonged to the Jewish people.
Tom Welsh: Now, you mentioned the last time we spoke that your father brought an artifact from Yalta. What was that? A sign…?
Lillian Katzman: Oh. It said…. It had a leather strap, and in Russian writing it said, “This shop is closed”—something like that. I don’t have the exact translation.
Tom Welsh: But the government ordered the shop closed.
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes.
Tom Welsh: So, there could be no private enterprise.
Lillian Katzman: No.
Tom Welsh: I see. How long were…your parents in Turkey? (pause) Well…your eldest sister was born there. Dorothy was born there…. I think you said…she was about 15 months old. So, they were there…a little more than a year…?
Lillian Katzman: They had good friends that let them stay in their home.[3]
Tom Welsh: In Turkey…? And they were living in Istanbul, which is….
Lillian Katzman: …Constantinople, in those days.[4]
Tom Welsh: And…which family members here in Youngstown arranged for your parents to come here?
Lillian Katzman: Max Katzman. I don’t know exactly how he was related to my father. He was a builder.[5]
Tom Welsh: Okay. And you mentioned that your uncle, Emanuel Katzman [helped finance their journey]…. So, they arranged for them to come to Youngstown?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And they sent them the money. They got the money, and they got the legal documents to come.[6] And that’s why they came to Youngstown and not other cities, because they had a little bit of family here. All the rest of their [relatives] were killed.[7]
Tom Welsh: Okay. So…the pictures that you showed me earlier of the family that was left [behind] in Russia, all those people perished before or during World War II. Is that right…? Okay. And why wasn’t it possible to bring them over? [Was it] just an issue of money, or was there a quota in place…?
Lillian Katzman: I’m not sure…. They maybe didn’t have enough money for all of them. We had a candy box filled with letters. My mother had a brother who was a doctor, and I had [the letters] translated by the Russian professor at [Youngstown State University]. And I can’t remember now what they said. But we were trying to carry on a correspondence…. We would write, and she would translate.
Tom Welsh: Right. And this correspondence ended about when? Do you know?
Lillian Katzman: (pause) In the Fifties—1950, or something. Both of my parents came from families that worked hard. They were educated people. Their family, their background, was educated.
Tom Welsh: Right. Now, when your father came here—apart from the sign that you said he brought—he also brought some interesting artifacts, which are still in your apartment. Did you want to describe those?
Lillian Katzman: Sure. He brought objects that could’ve been given to him as tips by customers in his barbershop [in Russia]. One is a wallet. It…had an [engraving] in silver of an elephant, and it’s still heavy silver. And another is a cigarette [case]…and they smoked long cigarettes.[8] (laughs)
Tom Welsh: Sure. (laughs) And these would’ve been given to him by…aristocratic customers—wealthier customers—in either Yalta or…. He was born in…. He was also working in Bobruisk—wasn’t he?—which is in what is now Poland.[9]
Lillian Katzman: Yes. And those items I treasure because I am interested in art, and I guess I’m interested in history.
Tom Welsh: Sure. Now, when your father came here, he continued his work as a barber. Did you want to talk about that?
Lillian Katzman: Well, he liked to be in public. He started at the Youngstown Hotel [in downtown Youngstown]. And he barbered at the hotel, where salesmen came to get their haircuts and do business downtown among the department stores, the hotels, and that kind of thing.[10] He had a good clientele. He really saved his money. He got good money and good tips, because he was a good barber…. I forgot. You were interested in that pot on top of the cupboard, where my sister carried his chicken noodle soup to the barbershop on the bus.[11]
Tom Welsh: That’s right. We’ll take a photograph of that later. But tell that story.
Lillian Katzman: My mother would prepare meals. My two sisters, who were older than me, took them on the bus to the place where he was barbering. And he’d work late. He was very ambitious and didn’t have to go home for dinnertime. He ate there.[12]
Tom Welsh: Now, you’ve said there was a lot of competition in the barbershop because they all wanted to get the best customers. And your father—as the most recent arrival—had the last chair. Is that correct?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. (laughs) “Save the last dance for me.” (laughs)
Tom Welsh: (laughs) So…he had to work his way up. Is that right?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And in those days, in the [1920s]….well, the men got permanents called Marcel’s.[13] And the equipment in a barbershop in the old-fashioned days was like in a doctor’s office, like leeches and spittoons….
Tom Welsh: So, they had limited medical, or health, services, too.
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And they had a man who shined shoes and sold cigars.[14]
Tom Welsh: Right. And so, this was a fairly lucrative job?
Lillian Katzman: Very, yes, very lucrative. And he was self-employed.
Tom Welsh: And you mentioned that he was a member of [Temple] El Emeth…for 50 years.[15]
Lillian Katzman: Yes, yes, and…..
Tom Welsh: Well, describe….. What was the importance of…the Jewish religion to your parents? Was that central to them?
Lillian Katzman: Very important. They were religious…. My mother…walked to the temple, from Cordova Avenue, every Saturday morning with a lady friend. They would meet and walk, because that was the old-fashioned way…. My parents had no car…and so, they did that. My father worked in the barbershop, which maybe he shouldn’t have done. But he couldn’t afford to close it on a Saturday.
Tom Welsh: How did your mother observe the Sabbath…? Were there any rituals, or…?
Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes. She baked bread called challah…. My mother baked the bread and made soup, chicken soup. And she always had some pastry. She liked to make strudel. That is…[a tradition that came over] from Russia. They learned how to make strudel. She made hers with apple or cherry or something.[16]
Tom Welsh: You also mentioned your mother…as a seamstress, made all of your clothes. Is that so?
Lillian Katzman: Yes.
Tom Welsh: And describe the clothing that you…. I’ve seen the pictures. They’re quite beautiful. But, describe the clothes that…you and your sisters had as children….
Lillian Katzman: What?
Tom Welsh: Describe the…kinds of clothes that your mother made.
Lillian Katzman: Oh, she made clothes that were unbelievable, with fur, ruffles, covered buttons. [They were] like designer clothes. She spoiled us.
Tom Welsh: And there were three of you—three sisters? And your eldest sister, you said…was born in Turkey? That was Dorothy?
Lillian Katzman: Dorothy. And she…was a fashion model, and very photogenic.
Tom Welsh: Right, definitely. And your next [oldest] sister was Gertie…?
Lillian Katzman: Yes…. And Gertie married young, to Eugene Gordon; and she took an interest in office work. So, she worked in the office of the Sam Gordon Trucking Company [in Youngstown].
Tom Welsh: So, you were the youngest in the family?
Lillian Katzman: Yes, [I was] 10 years younger.
Tom Welsh: Ten years younger than Gertie…?
Lillian Katzman: Yes.
Tom Welsh: And talk about how your…parents’ values kind of shaped your interests, because all of you had some kind of interest in the arts, from what you told me earlier.
Lillian Katzman: Exactly. I think mother must have done it, because of her clothes and the way they decorated their house. It was not pretentious. It was things that were old, but they lasted. They believed in buying things first-class and paid cash. Everything was cash. (laughs)
Tom Welsh: No credit.
Lillian Katzman: No credit. And that was a good way. We learned about that. When we grew up, we paid cash in everything. And as far as what my mother liked to bake that was nice, it was called mandel bread[17]…and rugelach.[18] It’s like a tea biscuit.
Tom Welsh: Oh, sure, Russian tea biscuits we call them, I think.
Lillian Katzman: Right, exactly.
Tom Welsh: Right. And she baked these for…?
Lillian Katzman: …for guests who came in. And they would have tea and a rugelach, or something like that.
Tom Welsh: Now, did your parents speak Russian at home?
Lillian Katzman: Mother had a fabulous American Russian accent. My father thought we should not speak Russian. We should be skilled in speaking American. And that’s what he wanted us to do, because we were associating with children from American-speaking families. He wanted his family to be like them.
Tom Welsh: So, he really promoted assimilation?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes.
Tom Welsh: Was he at all concerned about your Russian background because of what had happened in Russia? Were there any concerns…that…because after World War I…there were a lot…of bad feelings about Eastern Europe?
Lillian Katzman: Yes, he felt he didn’t like them. He didn’t like those people at all, what they did, and what they did to the Jewish people.[19]
Tom Welsh: So, [there were] a lot of bad feelings about the Bolshevik Revolution…. He did value your Jewish heritage, though. And…you mentioned earlier…that you were sent to Hebrew School. Talk a little bit about that.
Lillian Katzman: Yes.
Tom Welsh: This was at [Temple] El Emeth?[20]
Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. I was once married, and I was married at [Temple] El Emeth. And I worked first, when I got out of college, in Cleveland, Ohio, in three elementary schools. And….
Tom Welsh: Well, we were talking about Hebrew School, though….
Lillian Katzman: Oh, okay. Well, even in those days, coming out of college, I had roommates. They were Jewish. I always associated with Jewish girls.
Tom Welsh: Right. Were there any Jewish organizations at..? This was at [Miami University], I gather.
Lillian Katzman: I was a member of a sorority, Alpha Epsilon Phi. I…became the president.
Tom Welsh: Oh…president of your [sorority]? Wow…. Do you have any memories of Hebrew School, though? We talked about that a little earlier…. For six years you were at Hebrew School?
Lillian Katzman: Yes. We had to go, after public school was done. It started maybe at 4 o’clock, and we went till probably 5 o’clock, then came home, had a family dinner. My father would maybe be able to come home. Maybe he’d be working.
Tom Welsh: Right. And we kind of jumped ahead there, because I know you went to Miami University. But first you went to Rayen [High School]. Is that correct?[21]
Lillian Katzman: Yes.
Tom Welsh: And you talked…about John Benninger, who was the art instructor. Do you want to talk about him a little bit, right now?
Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes. I believe he was a big influence on my majoring in art.[22] And I don’t know if he would’ve known that I would go on to become a student in art education, but that’s what I did. And I did it because I needed to develop my art in a way that I could earn a living with it, not just fine arts. But I had to take classes in all the arts.
Tom Welsh: How did your parents respond to your decision to focus on…the visual arts?
Lillian Katzman: Well, they weren’t too happy about it. My father worked hard for what he did. And he said he couldn’t afford it. And he wanted me to go, but he thought I’m just going to fool around, and he didn’t want me to waste the money. So, my two sisters would send me five dollars every week in the mail so I could have money for extras. And my father paid my tuition. That was big money in those times.[23]
Tom Welsh: And this was at the University of Miami…?
Lillian Katzman: [It’s] Miami University, not University of Miami. It is known as the Harvard of the…Midwest.
Tom Welsh: And, so, do you think your father’s…practical concerns led you to focus on education?