Umræða OLT 2006-02-011
Barfield
Pétur Knútsson (, 13:37 21/01)
I pointed out Owen Barfield to Tessa, but I think others mught be interested. Tessa ordered A Barfield Reader: Selections from the Writings of Owen Barfield from Amazon I shall be interested to hear about it. At the moment I'm reading Barfield's _Saving the Appearences_ , and I can really recommend it for anyone who is interested in the way the pre-logical mind experiences reality. He is a marvelously lucid and entertaining writer. OK some of you may not be too interested in the workings of the primitive mind but the importance of the book is that he shows us how OUR minds are working, how we experience reality - there are many other ways ...
Actually Margaret I think Barfield would be necessary to you if you are purusuing the aboriginal track. Let me know how that's going. I might make a pdf of Barfield to speed things up.
Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Margaret Anne Johnson (, 16:05 21/01)
Yes, Pétur, I agree. Barfield's writing willcertainly be pertinent to the Australian aboriginies and oral culture. I am aleardy working on getting hold of a copy of "Saving the Appearances". I was also interested in discovering more about Havelock. On p.28 ch.2. Ong mentions Havelock's "Origins of Western Literacy" which is not an easy book to locate. I could not find it on amazon nor in a library search.
*****
Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Pétur Knútsson (, 20:25 21/01)
Margaret, it is in the library, you must have missed it. I'll take it out on Monday morning and make a copy for those who want it.
Havelock, Eric Alfred: Origins of western literacy : four lectures delivered at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, Toronto, March 25, 26, 27, 28, 1974
Toronto : Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, c1976
Nánar Lbs-Hbs Þjóðarbókhlaða 30 dagar Í hillu 4. hæð 401.1 Hav
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Re: Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Pétur Knútsson (, 20:32 21/01)
There's also his Preface to Plato 1963 in Lbs and The muse learns to write :
reflections on orality and literacy from antiquity to the present 1988.
We've got some reading to do!
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 23:46 21/01)
Hi Pétur, it would be great if you were to make a pdf of Barfield's "Saving the Appearances". The trouble with ordering books is they take so long to arrive. Also, do you know anything about a Dr. David R. Hawkins? - something about a map of consciousness, sounds a bit on the fringe, so I don't know how relevent it would be really.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 0:13 22/01)
Actually, I think Hawkins is not where I want to follow, so forget him please.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Margaret Anne Johnson (, 19:00 22/01)
Hello to all members of the seminar group!
As I am a distance learner and unable to attend the lectures, I want to introduce myself. I am an Australian who has lived in Iceland (on a farm in the back waters - 50kms from Egilsstaðir in the direction of Hallormsstaðir) for 18 years. I work as a personal assistant to 3 members of management on a construction site - yep! - Kárahnjúkar....but let's not go there. I am now in my third year and will complete my BA, all going well, at the end of the year. My interests are in linguistics, socio- psycho- and cognitive.
For this course I have chosen to work on "The Songlines" and the oral tradition of the Australian Aboriginies.
Looking forward to interacting with everyone through this discussion area, we really do feel 'out there' as distance learners. Don't you agree Tessa?
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 20:16 22/01)
Hi everyone, please call me Tessa - even though the header says Freyja Theresa. I agree with Margaret - not being able to discuss and interact with other members of a course can be very isloating. Listening to you all on the videos has made me aware of other avenues of thought, as well as enjoying the feeling of being "included". Unlike Margaret I don't know where my main point of interest is yet. I am very drawn to Jaynes' bicamerality,although I wish to read more of Barthes first before commiting myself to anything. It would be intersting to hear whether others amongst you have found themselves already drawn to one area of interest rather than another?
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Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Pétur Knútsson (, 23:33 25/01)
Tessa's last question is "It would be intersting to hear whether others amongst you have found themselves already drawn to one area of interest rather than another?"
- It's a question that everybody is going to have to answer very soon!
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Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Pétur Knútsson (, 23:35 25/01)
By the way, you don't all have to have different focuses (foci?)
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 12:34 26/01)
I've been wondering about Ong's suggestion on p.40 that writing (by hand) forces the brain into a "slowed-down pattern" thus reducing the "strain" on the psyche. How then does the use of computers/typing and suchlike affect us? Maybe I could investigate this - or, another area which is of great personal interest is: dyslexia - and AD/HD. But here, I run into difficulties because these are such multifaceted syndromes - and not based purely on the written word: R. and L. brain hemisphere quandaries, coping skills, "literal" interpretations of things said, concentration,etc. etc. This fascinates but terrifies at the same time - the subject is just so broad - how would I begin to break it down? So, these have been some of my thoughts - and obviously don't really relate back to Ong,chapter 3. today. I will watch the video - and maybe try and post thoughts that arise from listening to all of you - and look forward to reading your comments too.Sorry to have missed out on yet another session.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Guðlaug Hilmarsdóttir (, 14:16 26/01)
We talked today about different versions of a specific material, such as Hamlet, Merchant of Venice and so on...I noticed in chapter 3 that Ong talkes about different versions of myths in oral tradition (pp.41-42) There he says that the narrator/speaker needs to "introduce the material uniquely into a unique situation" so that the audience will respond. Also, Ong mentioned that there are "as many minor variants of a myth as there are repetitions of it". Wasn't this the same that we were talking about in class today, about each culture responding differently to the text, and that the text (words on a paper) is sometimes altered to get the reader to respond to the text and interpret it? Isn't that the issue then and maybe the reason for different versions of the idea of for instance Hamlet and Merchant of Venice?
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Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Margaret Anne Johnson (, 17:25 26/01)
Exactly what I was thinking, Guðlaug. The only difference is I was thinking about fairy tales "Little Red Rinding Hood" for example. Have you ever read a feminist version of that tale? It ,naturally ,is adjusted to suit an audience, the feminists. Pétur mentioned this in last week's class when he was talking about thingy.....you know...... (sorry, I have't got any of my study material nearby) he spoke in proverbs and everyone thought him wise, he was saying what the ausience wanted to hear.
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Re: Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Guðlaug Hilmarsdóttir (, 19:18 26/01)
Yes, I remember that. Also, the people who were taking Literary Theory at the same time as I did, we went through various versions of this fairy tale. I remember this version that had drinking blood and eating bones or teeth or something like that in it. One interpretation kept focusing on why Little Red Riding Hood kept going in bed with the wolf, picking flowers were also supposed to signify something deeper than just picking some flowers, she kept stuff under the apron (emphasis on "under the apron"), and so on.
Also, about speaking in proverbs and saying what the listeners want to hear...I found myself not trusting the politicians of Iceland, or of any country for that matter, when they are speaking in proverbs and promising everything you want of the future government. Then when you vote for a group, it most often happens that not half of the promises are kept. When I see someone other than politicians, for instance in the news on TV, speaking in proverbs, I tend to think how lame he sounds and change to another TV station immediately.
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Today's class
Anna Kristjana E Egilsdóttir (, 16:50 26/01)
Hi all.
I enjoyed the class today, it was nice to hear Tessa's and Margaret's voices. :)
So, what is a text? :):):):):)
Anna Kristjana.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Guðlaug Hilmarsdóttir (, 19:28 26/01)
There is one thing that I was thinking about when I was reading in chapter 3 about orally based thought and expression.
On page 35, Ong says the following words:
"In an oral culture, to think through something in non-formulaic, non-patterned, non-mnemonic terms, even it were possible would be a waste of time, for such thought, once worked out, could never be recovered with any effectiveness, as it could be with the aid of writing."
This got me thinking if the people in a primary oral culture were thinking constantly in proverbs and thought philosophical thoughts, no matter how insignificant the situation was. For instance, if they were sweeping the floor and noticed this ball of dust and started thinking about the life of the ball of dust and from there to compare human life to the life of the ball of dust. I just was wondering if there wasn't any moment that these people didn't just think freely about something in a non-formulaic way.
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 20:51 26/01)
On pages 35/36 I think Ong mentions such thoughts would just be fleeting feelings - "passing thought". I presume very similar to today, letting the moments drift by, observing rather than participating. My analogy might be more like you could see a pin on the floor - you could figure it would be dangerous to leave it there and so bend and pick it up and carry on with the sweeping or whatever - or you could quote the little saying to yourself and to who ever is with you: "see a pin, pick it up and all day long you'll have good luck"! Horribly formulaic, a bit like making conversation just to make conversation - but I supose it gives a feeling of being linked, being part of the greater whole of humanity. Quite possibly the quoting of a formulaic saying would have led on to other thoughts - but unless they were also formulas presumably they would be forgotten quickly, lost moments of time.
Going back to your ball of dust - the person could have thought - "there but for the grace of god go I" It would certainly have made sweeping feel more profound. Ong say s on page 70 that as writing progressed - and cognitive working progressed - we could puzzle things out more, cogitate etc. before that I supose the moments were lost in the everyday of life, as they still so often are! This hasn't really helped with you question - but it has helped me realise that we really do spend a great deal of our time lost in reflection, and not perceiving the present moment after moment after moment.
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Re: Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Guðlaug Hilmarsdóttir (, 21:36 26/01)
"This hasn't really helped with you question".....
I do understand your point;)
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Re: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Raywatee Sahadeo (, 12:48 29/01)
On the topic of "the originality of Text" based on last week's discussion. This extract, I saw in the book Chronology of Women Worldwide
Delia Bacon (1811-1859), Who Alleges Shakespeare is a Fraud: Delia Bacon, who call William Shakespeare "Will the Jester," is born. She devotes herself to proving that Shakespeare did not write the plays that are credited to him, basing this idea on the notion that the works of Shakespeare would have to have been written by someone knowledgeable about ancient history, law and science. Bacon finds support from Ralph Waldo Emerson, who help her get an article published in Putman's Monthly and Nathaniel Hawthorne. Her accusation lives on and continues to inspire scholars who either refute or support her notion.
And so we will continue our debate on Orality vs. textuality
Regards
Ranie
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A Stupid Point and a Half
Adrian Thurnwald (, 16:53 29/01)
Howdy,
I guess the general discussion forum is good. This is a topic that makes the brain fly off in all sorts of directions, and so you need to be able to discuss it with other people in the class... I'm trying to discuss it with people in my dorm but it's such an esoteric topic. Maybe we should all meet up for coffee some time.
I've had a few random thoughts that may all be meaningless. At the very least, maybe they can be funny...
Talking about oral poetry vs literate poetry... I thought of the tacky, infamous romance writer Barbra Cartland, even though it's silly... She published hundreds and hundreds of books, all of them notorious for their awful cliches and formulaic plots ('Her eyes burned into his like Topaz's... He enfolded her with his masculine arms...') but the way she wrote was to dictate (in her pink office) to her secretary while sipping champagne... I guess the joke is that she worked very orally, which is unusual these days, and so she was renowned for her sterotypical style in a stereotypical field. Without giving them any credit whatsoever, 'rappers' do that too, don't they? Free form (for what it's worth) song lyrics, fitting them to a meter, drawing on remembered phrases and rhymes, using awful cliches... ('I'm a better rapper than that guy... girls love me... blah blah blah...). Both these examples are in the modern age, so very un-oral, very recorded or printed, but still... Maybe a hint of orality persists.
Also I remember reading somewhere something about bicamerality... Apparantly it was commonplace in Roman military reports to record visititions from Gods. For example, a troop would wonder whether it was safe to cross a raging river. The report would claim a God appeared, crossed the river for them and blew a horn, and they knew it was safe. What I read suggested, in an overcomplicated way, something related to bicamerality... That perhaps some gristle in the brain was thicker back then, and dream imagery and Jungian symbols came to people more freely, blah blah blah... But this seems like too much of an overinvolved explanation of a simple thing to me. I mean, maybe they communicated in that way in military reports because that was still the accepted way of talking about things, because parts of the oral tradition still persisted? Maybe they wrote that way because a 'cliche' poetic form was still so culturally prevelant... So it might be standard for Homer, though Homeric poems were earlier, to link a mighty warrior to tall trees, or whatever, because the poetic standard was that they symbolically sit side by side... So maybe these Romans didn't see a God at all, but it was common to express one self in that way, because it was a cultural... metaphor or cliche left over from the Greek poets. I mean we might quote a TV show or a piece of culture and communicate something that way to a fellow who understands the reference... Maybe these Romans were referencing the Greek poets because this literate thought was still 'new' and many of the standard cliches were still in force and it was the accepted way of doing things and of thinking at that time. Anyway. A once potentially interesting point somehow seems much less interesting to me now... The next thing I say will be white hot lightning, don't you folks worry. You'll be writing your seminar project and you'll thank God someone referenced Barbra Cartland and the way orality inevitbly leads to cliche, don't you worry.
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A Text?
Adrian Thurnwald (, 16:55 29/01)
Maybe a text is almost like a scaffold, a framework, and each word is like a chemical... and you hope it will set off a certain chemical reaction in the human brain, and it most often does, but everyone's brains are different... and so sometimes these little chemical reactions and electric sparks end up being very different indeed...
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Re: A Text?
Margaret Anne Johnson (, 21:03 29/01)
What about parables and the art of story telling? Do we ever tell our children stories without a book..text in front of us? Can anyone think of the last time they spent with a young child and recall if they told them a story? Our modern emphasis on text appears to be at the expense of story telling, and who doesn't enjoy a good story? Especially a story well told.
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Re: Re: A Text?
Freyja Theresa Ásgeirsson (, 23:50 29/01)
I'm not sure I've made up any stories really for my children - although I remember my father doing so for me when I was little - I was allowed to choose the subject and he would tell the story. But, what I wanted to comment on was that I think we still do use "stories" with our children. We give examlples, and the "what if?" frameworks- to help them relate to consequences of their actions etc. We make them up - and fit them to everyday scenarios. I would suggest that we do still talk in "parables" - to a degree
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Just Say Hi
Bing Xi (, 15:58 01/02)
Hi to the distance students, although we could't see you, but we could hear you last class, that was really good. Anyway, if we just keep it that way, orality has just about enough power to transfer the necessary information expect for this general discussion part.