Draft
Lister’s Board Minutes 10:00 am 11-16-2017
Present: Duane Sprague, Richard Tomlinson, Charles McArthur listers
Allen Newton, Larry Bliss, Willard Gove, Sara Haskins, Mitzi Fleming, Dan Lindley.
The meeting was opened at 10:00 by Charles McArthur. At the suggestion of Dan the agenda was changed to include a request that the first item on the agenda be a request for any changes or additions to the agenda and the second item was to elect a chair and vice chair. There being no opposition. That was done. Charles resigned as chair and a request for nominations for chair was made. Richard nominated Charles and Charles seconded that. A vote was taken with Richard and Charles in the affirmative and Duane abstained. Charles asked for a nomination for position of Vice Chair and offered Richard’s name. That was seconded by Richard and a vote was taken. Two votes in the affirmative (Richard and Charles) and one abstention.
Charles then read the second agenda item which was a proposal to replace the tax map index cards with a tax map index kept in a three ring binder in the shared space between the Lister’s offices and the zoning office. He requested that Richard state the issues from the standpoint of the two listers currently working in the Lister’s office. A summary of his statements follows:
1)Deeds and Surveys are retained by the Town Clerk’s office and are available in the office during regular business hours of 8:00 TO 4:00 Monday through Friday. Deed research should be done in the TC office not in the lister’s office. It is not the duty of the listers to do records research for the public their primary function is the maintenance of the Grand list.
2)The maintenance and upkeep of the tax map index cards is a laborious and time consuming project that replicates information that is previously input into NEMRC and the address changes, ownership changes, and book and page of the last transaction is then automatically sent to a CAMA document which is printed on a lister’s card which is easily available in the lister’s office to anyone. That same information and more is available on two computers in the Town Clerk’s office as well as access to survey maps
3)New tax map index includes parcel id, cama id ,and property location it is easy to maintain and keeping in a binder makes them less likely to disappear. Charlesadded that this information in the new index can be printed directly from software and eliminates entering again into map card program. Everytime you add data there is the possibility of errors and inaccuracies so this reduces the possibility of errors occurring.
Statements by Sara
Not only are land records available during regular business hours in our office but they are available 24/7 on line from an office or at home. Also we have been told repeatedly by attorneys that we should not be doing research but should only be providing guidance or a starting point for researchers. That if we do research and provide research it places us in a dangerous liability situation. We have also had many aresearchers say to us that the tax map index card entries are not accurate. This makes me very nervous. Charles interjected at this point that he wanted this point put in the record that when the decision was made to move the records that it was a decision made by he and Richard after a discussion with Sara about the issue.
Dan commented on the need to provide the copy of letter from Allen Newton (requesting the tax map index cards be made accessible to the general public again) to the select board, but ultimately in this particular case the change in tax map indexes is not a decision to be made by the select board but is the responsibility of the Listers. Dan indicated that he was concerned about the liability issue to the town with respect to misuse of the records (researchers not following up with actual deed research).
Richard commented Tax maps are available on line 24/7 from any computer at morristownvt.org and there are several features that are also available such as tax map overlay on Google Earth or topo and access to other property information including Bk and page from my perspective they are a lot more clear and provide much more info that the paper maps.
Sara added that she felt and suggested that relative to the map index cards it would be better and more productive for the listers to spend time updating and confirming info on the lister’s cards. To provide a good starting point.
Richard stated that it is my sense that all of you have been into the lister’s office and Duane, Charles, and I have all assisted you in finding information. Duane stated that was certainly the case when he was in there.
Duane asked for a clarification on the information in the new index. And the answer was provided along with a view of the binder. Duane made the point that up to this time he felt he had been excluded from this discussion.
There was a question by Bill Gove about how to find info if he was looking by owner and was informed that was available in ACS or in Grand list book. He was concerned about continued access because it made his job easier and wanted to make sure that they (He, Allen, and Larry) have access or copies that they could use. Richard replied that the records would be kept and would be accessible to anyone who requested access.
Allen commented thatthis system has been in place for twenty years and it has been important. Records pulled because of lack of help. Reply by Charles that the reason was not due to lack of time or help but due to concerns about accuracy. Allen said that he had found mistakes and told Francis and Duane. Not a big deal no lawsuits. They were right on top of this most of the time. He does not see it as a liability. Charles reiterated at this point that it was the job of the listers to maintain the grand list and keep track of property values not to do records research. Bill suggested that not maintaining these files was a step backward. Allen does not want the system changed. Suggestion by Bill G. that we institute a permission slip system with statement absolving town of liability if using card file. Dan replied that that was not workable based on court rulings. If we are aware that there are issues of accuracy we cannot ignore that and wish or sign away the liability. The people present were reassured that the records/tax map cards would be kept in the town office building.
Larry asked for a clarification of the difference in the files when looking up a parcel that was just land and Charles responded by explain that land had a property location of 0 and the street name in the Lister card files.
Richard assured those present that they would find that anytime they came in and asked for assistance someone would provide that assistance to get them started. Allen made the point that asking for help from personnel would tie them up and take more time away from their duties. Richard replied that it did not compare to the loss of time spent maintaining the current cards or amount of time that would be required to update and correct cards to insure accuracy. Allen stated that he thought any time spent keeping the cards was worth it and requested that we retain the cards. Richard reiterated that there was no attempt to make these changes unilaterally without the presence of Duane and that was the reason for the public meeting. Which also provided an opportunity for public input and transparency. Charles again made the point that it was a change that was suggested and agreed upon in discussionamong Sara, Richard, and himself. Duane said it wasn’t unanimous but it was made by a majority of the players. Bill G suggested the liability had not been investigated as much as it could be. Dan suggested that this issue of liability arrived from information that Sara received at training sessions and he had a lot of confidence in her judgement.
Dan indicated again that if anyone wanted to make copies of tax map card that was possible or access that is possible. Concerns are with people that may not be doing proper research. The records in the town clerk’s office are the primary source. Sara said the question is should the tax map index cards records be maintained and updated and she would suggest retained but not maintained and not kept in her office. Charles had the same input that they should not be displayed in the Listers office. Many records are kept down stairs and are still available for public access. A comment was made asking what was the difference between keeping the records downstairs and keeping them upstairs? Dan suggested that it was to encourage people to do the research in the vault and on the computers in the town clerk’s office. Allen pointed out the only difference he could see was the lighting (not as good in basement), there was no difference in the liability. Dan indicated that he was going to look into the rules governing retention of records. He also stated that one of his duties was to handle the risk to the town from potential lawsuits. He also said that it was his belief that maintain the tax map cards was not a statutory requirement. That was confirmed by Charles. Allen stated that we would not have a better system than we have now no matter how many computers we had.
At this point Richard asked Dan if we could vote on the question to replace cards with binder and make a determination later about what to do with the files of map cards. His answer was yes. It would be appropriate to make a motion and vote Duane made a motion to discontinue the maintenance of the tax map cards and replace them with the tax map index in a binder. Richard seconded the motion. A vote was taken with a yes from Richard and Charles and a no from Duane. The motion carried. That still leaves the question of what to do with the current files. They will be kept in this building; they will not be destroyed. Duane said there should be a note saying they are not updated as of a certain date. There were a couple of question by Duane about signing the grand list, a discussion about altering past practices to insure public meetings be held on a more frequent basis. Motion made to adjourn Richard second by Charles Motion passed.