National Health, Safety & Welfare Council (NHS&WC)
Minutes of the meeting held in the Rotunda Room 4, Kings Place
14 June 2013 09.30 to 14.00
Present: Iain Boardman (IB) – Chair
Network Rail
Michael Dooley (MD)- Secretary Steve Hutchinson (SH) Observer.
Lee Parlett (LP)
Mike Carr (MCa)
Patrick Hallgate (PH
Rob O Halloran (ROH)
RMT TSSA
Paul Clyndes (PC) Elly Baker (EB)
AJ Yates (AJY) Ian Henry (IH)
Adrian Fricker (AF) Des More (DM)
Julian Thomas (JT)
UNITE Apologies
Rob Lowman (RL) Mick Cash (MC)
Jon Smith (JS) Caroline Meek (CM)
Susan Murray (SM) Martin Leadbetter (ML)
Dave Alan (DA)
Alan Brookes (AB)
In Attendance
Emma Head, Head of Workforce Safety.
MINUTE / SUBJECT / ACTIONNHSWC 13/21 / Previous Minutes and Matters Arising
Correction on page 6, change from near miss to electric shock; Agreed.
The minutes of the previous meeting were approved.
NHSWC 13/22 / Updates on outstanding Actions
NHSWC 13/02
Procedure Agreement; there is still work to do on the Agreement.
The TSSA would like to see what the new picture was like as soon as possible.
The RMT suggested that an addendum should be written down and agreed for inclusion into the existing agreement.
London Underground has a safety procedure agreement which could be used to assist.
Action IB would get a copy of this agreement from RW and forward to the Unions for their consideration. / IB
NHSWC 13/08
This was part complete and would be continued. / IB & MD
NHSWC 13/14
This action was complete.
NHSWC 13/15/1
This action was covered by Emma Head in her presentation at the meeting.
NHSWC 13/15/1
Training; This action is ongoing. It was explained that the training referred to was to further the non technical skills of the level one and two safety reps currently employed within NR.
PC gave the number of RMT reps and advised that he will be cross referencing with the RMT LUHSR for accuracy and updating.
NHSWC 13/15/1
EB informed the National Council that the National Ops Council had agreed the ROCs should have a group of safety reps for each ROC. PH agreed to send this to IB. / PH
NHSWC 13/15/2
This action was completed. The information on asbestos awareness is being cascaded and uploaded onto Safety Central.
NHSWC 13/15/3
AF concern was raised that the Unions are still not involved in the 650 working group. RO’H will look into this. / RO’H
NHSWC 13/17
DM updated on the action, explaining that the action covered a wider remit and that it was not just the presentation made at the last Safety Council meeting. He explained that there were still no separate safety councils meeting taking place and instead safety was an additional item on the industrial council’s agenda. This needed to stop and independent meeting for safety councils must take place.
AJ (who assisted in the completing the action) supported this sentiment and asked if some form of words could go from the National Council to the entire network explaining to managers that separate meetings should take place and that they should adhere to the National Procedural Agreement.
IB felt that this was not a good idea at present before the Procedural Agreement was signed off. Also the joint training would help to forward AJ’s suggestion. DM informed the Council that the jointly agreed agenda was being adhered to in Scotland and they were now taking the approach put forward from the National Agreement. It was agreed that the key was to getting the agreement signed off.
13/23 /
Matters referred from other meetings:
There were no matters referred from other meetings.13/24 / Significant Accidents/Incidents
LP delivered his presentation and took Q & A the discussion included; LP showed a slide on Town Green incident and was asked if there was an investigation in Tottenham and that no TUs were invited. LP ; there was good progress being made on TUs being informed and involved, he had recently addressed over 300 managers and gave the message in clear terms about what was excepted from them on this point. TSSA asked if there was a way of raising this locally if they were not informed and found out later about an investigation. LP ; Yes it can be raised locally and if it is a consistent problem with one area please let him know about it, but overall it is getting a lot better even though it is still not cracked 100%. EB asked if there could be a report back from the Tottenham investigation as she would need the detail before it was raised locally. RO’H agreed to contact her with the details.
LP continued to go through the presentation which included incidents at Port Talbot, Torbay, Stockley Junction Great Coates & Queens Street Station.
AF raised concern that the individual employee who worked for a contractor O’ Ryan Rail was not given any counselling. The individual broke down during the investigation and was clearly in distress and AF felt that more could be done to ensure that all workers involved could be given some help and support. It was discussed that NR employees had no problem with accessing support if needed but because of the lack of TU involvement with contractors the support might not be firmly recognised.
Although this situation of TU involvement with contractors had recently shown some improvement.
EB asked for an update on the Beech Hill incident LP ; the bulbs being used were the main factor, low sun behind the crossing made the identification of the crossing lights(wig-wags) inadequate. Lee was thanked for his presentation. / RO’H
Comfort Break
13/25 / Trade Union Matters
13/25/01
13/25/02
13/25/03
13/25/04 / TSSA
Close Calls IB asked if this could be covered by Emma Head’s presentation.
019 Standards ;
A question was raised about the different methods used for section planning through out the routes. PC; the RMT had similar concerns. This was a safety critical role which the working party on the COSS seemed to have drifted, maybe it was time to revaluate and closely examine the matter, planning was being done then altered and the guidance appeared confused, it would be possible to also include the European Standard in any revaluation.
PH ; This was not a quick fix and there was time when the circumstances changed right up until the moment the possession was due to be taken, it was difficult not to reconsider in those circumstances.
IB; We could also raise this matter when EH gives her presentation; she might be in a better position today to give some answers.
JS; This overlaps on to compliance and procedure where the COSS is not familiar with the areas. IB is this a specific example you would like to raise?
EB Yes but the ones we know of are being addressed because they have been raised. IB It might be best if we could consider all of this with EH it might be the ideal arena.
Fair Culture
EB we would like an update on how this is being embedded, in some cases the workshops on fair culture have not been rolled out consistently.
IB updated that LP running the Well Being with DCPs and embedding Fair Culture and the TU involvement, he will again reinforce this with his seminars starting in July. There was also a Behavioural Awareness workshop with professional actors involved in the role plays which ran in April and May.
DM ; asked for updates on TUs attending investigation training as observers.
LP; It will be part of the broader training as safety reps and there is a one day workshop on training for investigators, also a new accident investigation training program scheduled for 2-9th of July and if successful we can get safety reps on these courses.
IB Concluded on how well the culture change is being embedded, central management are greatly involved and on board, still some work to do in middle management, it is a long process and is being continually assessed as to where we are in that changing process.
Safety representation Arrangements.
The TSSA were concerned that the Procedural Agreement was unwieldy and that in their opinion thousands of employees across NR were not getting support and representation on safety matters and that there was no forum where they could call local management to account. RMT also had a similar problem in NDS. IB asked what the position was in Crossrail. PH said he could sort Crossrail out. DM had spoken to Brian Mitchell to move forward on this. IBB said that there must be changes made to the Procedural Agreement to accommodate this if necessary. EB asked for visibility of a forum to air safety issues because there is nothing in place currently. / IB
IB & PH
13/25/05
13/25/06
13/25/07 / Unite
SM introduced the matter of Rostering arrangements and outlined the problems as Unite saw them. JS followed with explaining that off track working was not being considered when rostering, that driving distances to and from to work was not considered, but none the less this could often result in fatigue. IB explained that the rostering procedures are on connect and should be adhered to. RL stated that his management are saying that they did not need to adhere to those procedures because their part of the organisation OCR was ring fenced. IB there is only one workplace safe procedure which covers all NR employees in all aspects of safety. RO’H will raise this with Ross Harper around the position of the OCR and the 2BC roistering principles.
Compliance to Standards & Procedures JS; raised the question as to why Non Compliance Certificates where being used indefinably. This question opened a debate on the matter. It was unclear as to how derogation and temporary non compliance certificates were being used. IB will ask Mark Prescott to contact Unite regarding the standards in relation to non compliance certificates to clarify.
JS also asked to include non compliance on RRVs.
RMT
PC brought a concern about the Ten Point Plan and asked for some update in relation to Paul Taylor’s letter which in his view should have came through the workforce representatives.
IB explained that the ten point plan was not a new plan but a mechanism for pulling the designated commitments together into groups and to give each group a named head who would be responsible for pushing the commitment in a robust fashion. A discussion followed on how each group would be set up and the TU involvement.
EB pressed for greater visibility on the groups involved and wanted to see TSSA reps on each group and not just the RMT –that it appeared to be getting done in an ad hoc fashion and a map of how NR were engaging with the TUs should be available to give visibility to how the TUs were being engaged. A date was needed as to when a map could be produced.
IB said that it was difficult to give an exact date but hoped within the next few months.
RW suggested emailing Allan Spence to ask how they were intending to engage with the TUs to assist Ian.
Lone Working
PC registered his disappointment that the RMT document on lone working has not been acted on or responded to in any way. The initial response from the National Safety Council was positive but since it was first raised and supported nothing seems to have been done much to the disappointment of the RMT.
IB and PC to arrange to meet to further progress this item. Unite asked to be involved as well and this was accepted
Line Blockage
AJ made a presentation on line blockages with reference to instructions being confusing. The instruction in the presentation from NR contradict what the Rule book states, there was also a serious concern as to what the COSS informs the Signaller. Given that the instruction was applied across Network Rail signallers, how would we ensure this message is cascaded appropriately to external company staff COSS and the SSOW planners.
MC stated that the rule book could not cover every eventuality there had to be some guidance on how to make the rules fit into real life scenarios which are varied. Sometime the aid to guidance could be confusing.
AJ said that it was that the information on guidance was being given to signallers and not to the COSS therefore there was a clash between what the rule book said and what the guidance recommended. MC stated that we could take this issue to the Line Blockage Sub Group to examine and deal with.
AJ the principle for him was that the instructions were going against the rule book and then examined after the fact.
IB will take this matter up with the line blockage sub group for their next meeting and report back on progress. / RO’H
IB
IB & PC
IB
Emma Head entered the meeting
13/26 / Special Topic Presentations -
Close Calls Presented by Emma Head, Head of Workforce Safety
EH made the presentation on Close Calls followed by Q & A which included discussion on; Stress, its effects and the difficulty in identifying and reporting it & exposure to fumes potentially dangerous long term but not immediately a hazard. It was explained by EH that these potential hazards can be identified and catered for, the same as future identifiable hazards can be added when they are identified. Also Unite raised the matter of bullying as a hazard, it was suggested that the help lines which are available can be utilised for bullying.
The Employee Assistance Scheme was confidential and run by an external company. Not all of the National Council members were familiar with the Employee Assistance Scheme and what is did or how it functioned. It was suggested that Chris Jones could be invited to provide information on the scheme to the National Council.
Further discussion and Q7A took place. EH is happy to cascade the action plan that has been put forward. She will also share the calendar for communications workshops in local DUs that will be delivered by local managers.