Draft Minutes of the IAF Technical Committee Meeting
01. Welcomes, Apologies and Introductions
Norbert Borzek Technical Committee (TC) Chair welcomed the attendees and explained that due to last minute registrants that the room was a bit smaller than ideal. Due to the reconfiguration of the room some seats did not provide an idea view of the projection screen. He also explained that the power outlets were limited so participants would need to share.
There was a round of introduction of all attendees, including the Vice-chair (Ekanit Romyanon) and the new Secretary for the TC committee (Joan Brough-Kerrebyn).
The TC Chair handed out the attendance check list and gave a brief presentation addressing some “meeting rules”. Since the agenda was long he asked everyone’s’ cooperation in respecting the times limits for coffee and lunch breaks and the need to be concise with their comments.
Ignacio Guerreiro of OAA, Nigel Croft, and Alex Ezrakhovich sent their apologies.
01.1 Terms of Reference / Voting Member Identification (IAF-TC-02-12)
Members were asked to identify themselves as a voting or non-voting representative and were referred to the summary presentation on the Terms of Reference for the Technical Committee included in the papers.
02. Agenda and Objectives of Meeting (IAF-TC-01-12Rev2)
There were no objections about the agenda and no additions requested.
Meeting reports and documents received directly before or during the meeting will be sent to all members and attendees after the meeting with the minutes.
03. Minutes of March 8th – 9th, 2011 Meeting in Epsom, England (IAF-TC-36-11Rev2)
There were no comments or corrections offered and the Epsom minutes were accepted.
03.1 Log of Key IAF Technical Committee Decisions (IAF-TC-05-11Rev1)
The most recent log in its final format was distributed to the IAF Technical Committee Members prior to the TC meeting. The log was revised regarding decisions at Epsom and there was work performed to include a search engine. There was general agreement that a search function would be useful and if possible included.
Action item: Publish the Decision Log on the members’ only web site and if possible include a search function. Members are to be notified when it was posted.
03.2 Document Development Process (IAF-TC-03-12)
A presentation on the Document Development Process was given by the Secretary as a review and introduction to new members. The distinct stages were identified and the TC Chair approval needed to move forward to each stage. It was pointed out that a proposal process was identified for the initial commencement of work on new documents. While this was typically accomplished in discussions at meetings it was agreed that a formal documentation of the initial proposal would be useful.
Venkat Balakrishnan also added that the issue of the proposed classification (ID vs. MD) of a document is important at the initial stage. He added that rules to determine the classification may be useful.
Action Item: Develop form for proposal of new document based on PR2 procedures.
04. Working Groups Progress Reports
04.1 IAF Working Group on ISO/IEC 17024 (IAF-TC-32-12)
Roy Swift provided a presentation on the progress of the WG.
The Working Group met on Saturday April 28, 2012. The WG objective is developing a framework MLA for 17024 with a full evaluation process. The WG worked primarily on the documents to outline this process. The evaluation will include the review of documents, and on site and witness assessments. In addition it has provided input to A5 for Assessor Competence which included a process to determine additional assessor knowledge bases on the identified key activities. The WG also worked on a proposed new annex to PL3 to address criteria for endorsed schemes for Personnel Certification. It was identified that there was a need to have a pilot application and to develop a checklist for peer evaluation.
Roy continued that ISO 17024 is anticipated to be published in a few months and the WG believes there is a need for a transition document similar to that for ISO/IEC 17021. The proposal for that will be presented to the TC at the Rio meeting. They also felt a MD document for 17024 may be needed in a year or so after implementation.
Roy noted the need for publicity on the IAF website regarding the move towards an MLA. It was noted that EA has a MLA implemented and PAC and IAAC are also moving towards MLA based on 17024.
Roy also reported on the successful workshop held on April 27, 2012. He explained that the goal was to ensure consistent evaluation and that further workshops will be needed at the regional level in the future.
Action Item:
WG 17024 to propose a transition period for ISO 17024 document and any MD document requirements at Rio meeting.
Post Meeting Note: A resolution on transition is needed for any period other than two years.
It was suggested that the WG liaison with Communications Management Committee (CMC) regarding publication of information on the MLA.
04.2 IAF Working Group on ISO/IEC 20000 (IAF-TC-44-12)
Mr Takeshi Nonaka gave a presentation.
It was explained that the WG will prepare a draft document includingthe auditor's competence criteria and the audit time and submit itto the TC for a 30 day comment period.
A document of requirements for bodies providing audit and certificationservices for ISMS is going to be prepared by ISO.The WG will watch the progress of this document’s development in ISOand coordinate with CASCO.
04.3 IAF Working Group on Product Certification Accreditation (IAF-TC-35-12)
Paul Moliski gave a presentation on activities of his WG.
The WG discussed an “expected outcomes document” and while there was a clear need the development was viewed as problematic due to the wide scope of products/services schemes.
WG agreed to propose a document on guidance on remote assessments. Paul expressed a need for this guidance as CBs have a variety of different procedures and consistency could be enhanced. A TF convener and members would need to be identified and a proposal prepared. Some TC members felt this document would be beneficial.
FDIS ballot for 17065 is expected in May 2012 and publication in August 2012.
WG agreed to a recommendation of a maximum of a three year transition period. Norbert explained that if the proposed default period of two years was used no formal decision would be necessary. TC members discussed this further and agreed that a 3 year period would be appropriate.
In regard to the existing GD5 document it was recommended that a gap analysis be done at the next meeting. The WG invited SWEDAC to share the results of their gap analysis and opinion on the need for a MD document.
Action Item: WG Product to prepare a proposal on the need for a remote audit document applicable to ISO 17065.
Action Item: WG Product to determine need for any MD document and report to TC.
Decision 12/05/01: The IAFTC recommends that the transition period for the application of ISO 17065 be three years from the date of publication.
04.4. IAF Working Group on Food (IAF-TC-29-12)
Skip Greenaway provided a presentation on WG activity.
As a result of the recent name change from Food Safety Management Systems to Food Schemes and Scope to this WG, revised Terms of Reference were developed and presented to the TC. These were agreed to by the TC members.
The following progress prior to the meeting was reported:
Development of assessor competencies for inclusion in A5,
Adoption of the EA-3-11 as an MD document,
Review of peer evaluation competencies, endorsed scheme criteria, and MLA related documents for inclusion in A5.
Actions on the MLA checklist were noted. At the WG meeting the members made a recommendation to the MLA MC on what additional assessment work needs to be taken to process a scope extension. The WG believed that it has completed all actions on the MLA checklist and has reported such to the MLA MC. A recommendation to launch a scope extension was made by the WG to the MLAMC.
The WG also discussed the need for an expected outcomes document and initially decided it would be difficult but would explore it further with ISO. The application of the extraordinary events document to the food scope was discussed and the WG agreed to explore that further. Discussions on the EA Organics scheme had been delayed until the EA had made further progress.
The WG also received a number of liaison and CASCO reports during their meeting and summarized in their report.
Skip indicated that there was need to work between meeting and requested direction for their roles as co conveners to be effective. He outlined the importance of the relationships between the IAF ABs and CBs for a successful program. If the scope is to expand into other areas it will be necessary to make all the scheme owners comfortable and to proceed cautiously with regulatory issues.
04.5 IAF Working Group on Greenhouse Gases [GHG] (IAF-TC-26-12)
Mr Phil Shaw provided a presentation.
The WG GHG had not yet met at these meeting and Phil provided progress to-date.
The WG finalized three technical documents and those required by PL3 to extend the MLA.
Comments received in 2011 were reviewed in a teleconference in Feb 2012 and subsequently combined into one document by an editorial sub group in March 2012, “IAF Mandatory Document Application of ISO/IEC17011 in GHG validation and verification on application of ISO14065 “. This draft was circulated to WG members for comment until April 25th and will be finalized May 2, 2012 at their meeting.
The WG GHG requested that the document be approved by the TC Chair for the next stage of the process, 30 day comment by all TC members.
In the meantime the WG GHG will continue to dialogue with the IAF MLA MC to complete actions for the MLA extension.
Action Item: WG GHG will finalize the MD document and submit to the TC Chair for approval for a 30 day comment period.
04.6 ISO 9000 Advisory Group [IAG] (IAF-TC-30-12)
The TC Chair explained that this WG had been terminated and the tasks and members integrated into the WG on Creditability of MS Certification. The rational for this decision was the duplication of the items being discussed by both groups and potential synergy of combining these discussions.
04.7 ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group and Accreditation Auditing Practices
Group [APG and AAPG] (IAF-TC-42-12)
Venkat Balakrishnan co-convener gave a short verbal report.
He noted that his co-convener Alex Erzakovich joined the meeting by Skype.
The WG discussed the need to review the 6 papers with reference to ISO 19011. The paper “Effective use of ISO 19011” also needs to be rewritten asISO 17021 only references it for internal audits. Venkat agreed to do this task.
A paper on pre-audits was considered regarding conflict of interest issues, however it was not considered part of the certification process and all concepts applicable to audits would also apply here.
A paper on Reviewing and closing non conformities was discussed and members agreed to review it to improve emphasize on root cause analysis.
A paper on auditing outsourcing was also considered and may be developed using references from existing ISO guidance documents on the subject.
The WG discussed their mandate in terms of limiting it to maintenance of existing papers. The group decided to continue its present functions and discuss this change in the future with both conveners present.
4.8 IAF Working Group on Credibility of Management Systems Certification (CMSC) (IAF-TC-38-12)
Lori Scheid-Gillespie provided a presentation.
With the merger of the IAG the WG had discussed the Term of Reference. This included the transfer of the tasks from the IAG and a list was provided to the TC members. The WG noted that there are a number of sources from which issues can be raised and presented examples. Some of the areas where higher priority was assigned were noted with the highest being the control over franchises and subcontractors. The WG proposed to assign a TF to address the control of franchisees and sub-contractors.
The WG requested the following:
Confirmation of the termination of theIAG and transfer of ToR and outstanding agenda to the CMSC WG.
Confirmation that the IAF TC would like to have ISO/CASCO and ISO TC 176 continue their participation in the new WG.
Agreement to change the name of the standing working group to WG on Enhancing the Performance of Accredited Management System Certification (EPAC).
Decision:
12/05/02 The TC confirmed that the EPAC WG could create a TF as long as they were justified and required no additional resources.
12/05/03 The TC also agreed that CASCO and ISO members were most welcome to attend however coverage of any meeting fees would need to be pre-approved.
12/05/04 The TC agreed with the proposed name change of the WGCMSC to WG Enhancing the Performance of Accredited Management System Certification (EPAC)
Action Item: WG EPAC will provide a revised Terms of Reference for approval.
04.9. IAF Working Group on ISO 13485 Quality Management Systems for Medical Devices
An oral report was provided by Grant Ramaley.
The WG worked on the MLA requirements with assistance from Steve Keeling. The WG had worked through the PL3 checklist for MLA extension. The WG also realized that it had to determine how many potential ABs would be involved in this program.
Grant noted that Australia had adopted the program as part of their regulatory program.
The WG will have a training session in Rio.
04.10 IAF WG on ISMS (ISO 27001) MLA Scope (Nakagawa)(IAF-TC-33-12)
A presentation by was provided by Azusa Nakagawa.
A series of options for ISMS scoping were presented but there was no consensus from the members of the WG. The WG therefore asked the TC to perform a survey of members as to which approach should be taken.
The need for additional documents to prepare for an extension of the MLA was also discussed by the WG, but they did not reach a conclusion at this point in time.
Various approaches to a peer evaluation process were discussed at their meeting and outlined to the TC members. It was reported that the WG did reach consensus on developing a competence matrix and requested the TC to approve its development. The WG also agreed to ask the JWG on the A series to consider the necessity of some criteria on the evaluation for accreditation personnel.
Decision:
12/05/05 The TC agreed and approved the WGISMS to conduct a survey on the preferred options for scopes.
12/05/06 The TC agreed that the WGISMS should develop a competence matrix for accreditationpersonnelin liaison with WG 17024 and in consideration of the matrixes already produced by WG 13485 and WG Food.
04.11 IAF WG on Programme for the Endorsement of Forest Certification [PEFC](Rantanen) (IAF-TC-22-12)
Varpu Rantanen provided a report.
The WG completed their Terms of Reference document and requested that it be circulated for the TC members’ approval.
She reported that PEFC had worked on guidance to appendix 4 to the Chain of Custody (CofC) standard (social health and safety requirements).
The joint CofC document is in a final editorial revision stage and will be published as soon as it passes a PEFC ballot by Council. The joint document development process has been difficult because no procedure for such a document had been developed. In the future it may be beneficial to agree on one source of publication for such endeavours.
The WG did discuss with PEFC influences of changes to ISO/IEC17021:2011 and the new ISO/IEC17065 to CofC and SFMS (Sustainable Forest Management Systems) certification
Action Item: Circulate the WG Forest Terms of Reference to members of the TC for comment and approval.
05. Projects – Work Program from Epsom
05.1 IAF Task Force on Indicators of Certification Body Performance
(IAF-TC-13-12 7 2 attachments)
Venkat Balakrishnan gave a presentation.
While there was no TF meeting at this occasion, Venkat discussed the resolution of the comments received. There were two key issues:
1. The frequency of data collection which was reduced from 6 months to annual (between annual onsite assessments),
2. The Informative Index with a summary of data from CABs, retained to possibly be used later.
There was strong consensus within CAB representatives that this annex was not needed. Venkat continued with three options regarding the disposition of the annex which he requested TC members to consider. Once this decision was made the TF would finalize the document and request it be sent out for comment.
The requirement to consider future implementation issues was also indicated. He indicated that 12 months after publication should be sufficient.
After extensive discussion and an informal show of hands the decision on the future of the annex was unclear. It was decided that a formal decision through the comment process was the best approach. The actual stages of comment that the document had been through was not clear so further records investigation by the TC Chair was required.
Action Item:
1.TC Chair to determine the actual stage of the document development process for this document.
2. Send out for 30 day TC member and/or 60 day IAF member to also determine whether to retain or delete the informative annex. Include any comment template with resolution from the first series of comments received.
05.2 IAF Task Force Document on Competence of Accreditation Assessors and Experts (IAF-TC-20-12)
Roy Swift reported for himself and Phil Shaw regarding the document on the job analysis and validation report for Accreditation Body Assessors. The document is informative and Roy suggested it be publicly assessable on the IAF website. Roy continued that the TF wanted approval to expand into specialized areas and would return with a proposal.
The Chair IAF indicated that he was expecting a generic set of mandatory criteria that could be used immediately. Roy explained that it was possible, however, the data would need to be re-edited from the existing report.
Léopoldo Cortez cautioned that not all AB have assessors do the same thing so the requirements need to be flexible. Roy responded that he felt the material was flexible enough.
The TC members agreed with the posting of the existing materials and the continuation of work towards a MD document.
Action Item:
1. Post Informative report on the web site.
2. TF to reformate and develop a MD coordinating work with WGs that are preparing for MLA extension.