How to Find New Ways of Marketing Business Online
with Holly Worton
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About Jo Casey
Jo Casey is a certified life coach, trainer and coach mentor. She’s British, slightly nerdy and allergic to the marketing bullsh*t in the coaching industry. Founder ofjocasey.com, podcaster, speaker, and writer for Coaching Blueprint, Mind Body Green and Tiny Buddha.
Things that make me scream with glee:Freshly washed bed linen, watching my husband get all ‘handy' around the place (DIY I mean), yellow wedge sandals, fabric stores, the sound of my kids giggling, Jesus Christ Superstar the musical.
Spirit Animal:Lesley Knope
Why you should listen to me about coaching:I've been training, coaching and mentoring coaches for 14 years and I built my own coaching and training business after a lot of initial trial and error. I've been where you are now and I love showing coaches like you how to pull out all of the things that will make your business stand out and attract the right clients to you, without wasting a lot of time on useless and expensive shiny objects.
What You’ll Learn
- Why there's a shift going on in certain parts of the online business community
- What's not working for some people in online marketing
- Why marketing can feel manipulative and sleazy
- Why positioning yourself as an expert can be open to exploitation
- Why certain marketing tactics just don't feel good to some people
- How we get to the next phase or style of online marketing and what does that look like
Things We Discussed
- Jo's Facebook group
- Holly's Facebook group
- Fabeku Fatunmise
- Kelly Diels and the Female Lifestyle Empowerment Brand
- Derek Halpern's Social Triggers
- Robert B. Cialdini's book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion
Transcript
Holly:Hello and welcome to the Business Mindset Podcast, episode 203. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with Jo Casey.
Today we are going to talk a little bit about how to find new ways of marketing our businesses online. We’ve been having, kind of, similar conversations with a bunch of people about how disillusioned we are with the old-school marketing techniques. And I have talked about this a little bit lately, but we decided to do an episode on it, because I feel like this is a conversation that we all need to be having more often. If we are unhappy with something, in this case online marketing, and online marketing techniques, then I think the more we talk about it, the easier it will be to find a new way forward.
So, some of the things that we are going to cover in this episode: first of all, we are going to talk about why there's a shift going on in certain parts of the online community about certain things not working; and we explore what's not working for some of us; talk a little bit about why marketing can feel manipulative and sleazy, even though it doesn't always have to be that way; why positioning yourself as an expert can be open to exploitation, and that doesn't always work, especially when people are trained to position themselves as an expert, when they really aren't; and yes, people do that.
We also talk about why certain marketing techniques just don't feel good to some people, even if they work for other people; and we talk about how to find; how to get to the next phase or style of online marketing and what does that look like? So, we explore some specific examples of people that we think are doing interesting things in the world of online marketing, and some of the different ways that we think things can change and different ways that we can play around and do things.
So, if you have been displeased with the marketing world, and unhappy with some of the stuff that you see people doing, and it seems like everyone is following the same exact formula and you don't like that formula, then I think you will find today's episode very interesting. Thanks for tuning in!
Jo:Hi everybody this is Jo Casey. It is lovely to be back!And I am here with Holly Worton, hi Holly!
Holly:Hello!
Jo:And today we are going to be talking about something that is inspired by a recent post that Holly wrote in her Facebook group; so, both Holly and I have respective Facebook Groups, mine’s called ‘The Coaches Collective’ and Holly’s is called ‘Business Mindset Alchemists’ – you can find them by putting a searchinto google or by going to our respective sites. And, Holly had written a post just the other day and it really struck a nerve with people, so I am just going to read it out or read out the beginning bit and then that's where we are going to take it, so, she says:
“There is something that I have been talking about with my friends lately, and I know that we need to make this a public conversation, but I am still not sure what form to take. [Jo: Podcast episode! laughing] The thing is we still haven't reached a conclusion we are still kind of in the brainstorming phase, and I am still not sure what to say, but here's the thing: I am sick of traditional online marketing methods, yes they work, I am so sick of everyone sounding exactly the same online and I am super-ashamed that I have been guilty of it in the past, because I know that's how I learned online marketing too, and it works right, so why not do it? But it is getting old, and in face I think all the crap expired long ago and now it is starting to stink and I am sick of it. The question is what can we do instead?”
And she goes on to say what she would like to see, and a really good discussion ensues in her group and we thought this would actually be a great subject; so, Holly, tell me a little bit about what inspired or promoted the post, because I know I'm on board with this, I agree with you, and a lot of other people responded in the same way, so tell me more?
Holly:Well, it was inspired by the fact that I realised that I have been having this exact same conversation with so many of my friends. I went on a walk with my friend Cathy last weekend, we spent hours talking about it. I was skyping with another friend last week, we were talking about it; like the same conversation keeps coming up,over and over again. And then, I think it was the same day that I posted that, the conversation came up in my master-gut group and , we were talking about it again, and we were like: ‘we have got to talk about this’ and so it was like a… it was all bubbling up inside me, so I just went… it started out as a newsletter, I went to ConvertKit, opened it up, opened an email and just went ‘urggh’ and like vomited everything out [laughing] into an email. And then I sent it to my list, and I was like: ‘okay, well that's gone’.
And so, then I went back in, copy and pasted it, put it in my Facebook group, and then sat with that for a while and then put it on my Facebook page, and my Facebook profile and then got it out there and started seeing, how many other people feel the same! I got so many comments from people recommending people to look at and people to pay attention to, because that's the thing, we see so many people doing this old-school online marketing that's it's easy to find a million examples of people doing that, but I am really struggling to find a lot of people who are doing something wildly different; and I don't just mean a new spin on the old stuff but like totally different. Like, at the time I wrote that I could think of one person, and that's Fabeku Fatunmise, because I think he's just completely anti all the stuff that I am sick of seeing. So, he's a great example, but I couldn't think of anyone else! So, I was asking people for examples and a lot of people put people in there, some of whom I am really not convinced they are doing something different, but some of them are, so yeah that was the inspiration.
Jo:I think it is really interesting; it does feel like there is a shift going on, within certain parts of the online business community, it seems to be coming from a number of different places, and I think it is always really interesting and always something to watch when the same conversations start happening in numerous different places. I think that's a real sign that there is something fundamental shifting. And so, I think you are right; but how do we get to the next please then? Talk to me a little bit about what you feel is kind of going wrong with that kind of that online marketing…traditional online marketing –how have you been doing it for the past few years?
Holly:So, I feel like it is very manipulative;I feel like it is playing with all the psychological stuff, which I think is… it gets results, of course it does, because it has been studied, and it has been crafted to get results; and that's great if that's all you want is to make sales. But, I think if what you are wanting is to create a business that really feels good and gives you a deep connection with the people that you are working with, and helps you sign-on the right clients, your ideal clients, rather than just as many people as you can get – I am not sure that those manipulative marketing tactics are what you want. Years ago, I trained in a sales-technique, for sales calls, which was very heart-centred and it worked. I mean when I got people on discovery calls, and I used this, kind of, formula with them, I had pretty much 95% sign up rate. And it was all designed to help the person get clear on whether I am the right person for them, and that kind of thing. So, it was designed with good intentions but it didn't feel right and I have actually quite using it, because it just doesn't feel right anymore. Because it is about building up the pain and then giving them the solution; and I just don't like that, I don't like tapping into people's pain and I get that it works because it is getting them to find a solution, but it just doesn't feel right anymore.
Jo:I agree. There is a great... actually my coach Kelly Diel, she has written a lot about this, and breaks down a number of the tactics and the techniques that are used in that kind of traditional online marketing space and explains,kind of, why they are manipulative and how they operate on our social triggers. I mean there's a guy called Derek Halpern who actually has… his business is called ‘social triggers’ and it's the idea that how we use the unconscious and how we are trained to respond as humansand how you, kind of, deliberately manipulate those things so that people are more likely to buy from you. I think when you are first starting out you kind of go ‘oh ok,that's how it works and that's fairly benign.’ But, when you dig into it, actually it's not that benign, it is kind of sleazy and like you say, manipulative.And so Kelly writes about this thing called ‘the female lifestyle empowerment brand’ and how it works, particularly in brands that are targeted at women online. It is really interesting and we will link to it in the show notes, but it is a really interesting about how things like setting yourself up as an expert or authority, because people are more likely to respond to somebody with authority, even if you are not an expert in it. There is lots of stuff about how you make yourself appear like an expert, even if you are not an expert. I have no problem if somebody who genuinely has done the work, is doing their thing and knows their stuff, but if we are veering into the ideas of ‘if your read seven books on this and you position yourself like this... then people are more likely to buy from you because they will think that you are an expert on it and you just have to position yourself that way. So, it is very open to abuse, I am not saying that the people who originate in it are necessarily coming from nefarious places, but it is very dodgy and it is certainly open to exploitation and abuse I think.
Holly:Yeah, I agree, I agree. And, I completely agree with what you said about… I don't think that the people who invented these things had you know negative intentions in mind, but when you read books like the Cialdini book ‘Persuasion’that's the same kind of thing, like you are persuading people, that's manipulation. And it is just…it does not feel good to me.
Jo:Yeah, I agree. And what is interesting is that book has been used (so the book Influence) has been used so many times by the big marketers, and it is referred to, almost as if it is a bible. And what I didn't realise is, it was written to kind of expose these, kind of, hidden-triggers that people use and exploit; it was written from really good intentions to make people aware, so that they were less susceptible to it. But actually, it has been taken and used, ‘and here is the…’ it is almost like a 1-2-3 instruction manual as to how to manipulate people. You are right, it doesn't feel good, it doesn't do good, and yeah, I think a lot of people are coming to the conclusion that if you are genuinely wanting to come from a heart-centred place, then its incongruent to be using those shady and manipulative tactics and techniques.
Holly:Yeah, I completely agree, and I think it is interesting that you said about the big influencers and the guru-star profiles, because it is so easy to think, especially if you are new in business, like, they have the solution, they have the blueprint, they have the knowledge, because it worked for them clearly but what worked for them, doesn't necessarily work for you and I don't think it is very empowering to be using somebody else’s blueprint or system.
Jo:No, I know we have referred to this before but when I first started out I hoovered up every piece of information I could find: I paid for courses, I bought the blueprint and it took me a long while to realise, that actually, those blueprints worked for them, because they had a unique set of circumstances, usually because they had a much bigger platform and audience established already. So, you can have the smartest say email funnel in the world, but if you only have 30 people on your list, it is not going to [laughing] convert…it is not going to bring in those numbers. And then there is kind of an ethical issue in there as well about what position do we want to be coming from, what do we believe in terms of letting people have all of the information they need, so that they will make it… I always go back to this idea of: I want people to make a really aligned decision to work with me. If it is a decision that is a no, that is coming from fear, yes, I want to help them through that, to unpick that so that they can get to the place where they know they are making an aligned decision and not just one based from fear of I don't want to invest this money. So, I am happy kind of on that level, but if it's: I want people to kind of take a leap into the unknown and to kind of be pressured and that they need to make a decision there and then, then they haven't got time to reflect on it, they haven't got time to go away and do a gut check on it; or.., then I personally don't want someone to be investing in me just because I know how to push their triggers and so have kind of tipped and put my hand on the scale.
Holly:And I think we have all been on the other side of things as well - I mean I have definitely signed up for things because I got sucked into someone else's sales pitch, selling from stage into some high-priced thing that I am wanted to believe is going to fix all my problems, even though deep down I knew it wasn't right for me. But, you know you get a fast action bonus, you get the discount, and you get all this shit that you don't really need, that triggers you into thinking that ‘well, if I don't get this now I am going to miss out on the extra stuff’.
Jo:Yes, exactly, exactly. I know one of the things that Fabeku is just vehement about is early-bird bonuses and fast-acting bonuses, and things like that. And also, when I think about the amount of things that I have signed up for, that are actually crap, but you get into that state of almost ‘and I get all the bonuses as well’. When you are in a calmer, more grounded state, you look at all those bonuses and go ‘I am never going to use them!’ Or actually, they are rubbish…or actually they are just somebody’s freebie that they have thrown in to make a course seem better. And it is because, a lot of the time those things are designed to get you out of that grounded state into a fear state or a scarcity state ‘there are six hours left for you to sign up for this and I will miss out if I don't do it’ and there are certain things happening with our brain when we are in that kind of a state. And there has been a lot of research into buying behaviours, and what helps people to buy - and not necessarily about: well is that a good thing? Are we kind of manipulating people into buying this thing?I guess the marketers are only focussed on the sale, get the sale, that's the bottom line, not building a relationship with that person, building a long-term relationship with that customer and doing good in the world.