Hearing Before the Powers, Privileges and Immunities Committee of Parliament, in the Matter
MONDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2014
HEARING BEFORE THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE OF PARLIAMENT, IN THE MATTER BETWEEN THE PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND MR N F SHIVAMBU (MP) AND 19 OTHER MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT COMMITTEE ROOM E249
The Committee met at 10:03.
The[ct1]CHAIRPERSON OF POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile): Hon members, welcome, after, I am sure, a very short weekend. Hon members will remember that when we adjourned last week, we agreed that today we are going to resume with the hearing with the additional witnesses that we had agreed to call and today is the day that we will hear from those witnesses.
Hon members, I just want to check with the officials whether they have received any apologies from members, because I can see that we are not all in – as expected. Have you received any apologies?
An hon member: We did receive an apology from Mr Luzipo.
The[ct2]CHAIRPERSON OF POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile): Very well. That being the only apology. For now that is hon Mncwango who is not in currently and hon Matlhoko doesn’t seem to be in. We hope they are still on their way. Maybe they are stuck in traffic, because anything is possible in the City of Cape Town this morning. [Interjections.] Yes. I do hope that he is still on his way.
Hon members, today is not necessarily our day. It is a day of hon Van Voore and the witnesses ... Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
Hon members, I hope that we are now settled, as we should have expected that to have happened just after 09:00 when we resumed the hearing. It looks like we now have a full complement and I am not sure whether the member of the EFF had concluded that administrative activity we spoke about; if hat has been done – the administration, hon members, is an official appointment from the EFF of the replacement of hon Matlhoko in this specific committee. It needs to be done in writing and I am getting confirmation that we have received such and it has been ATC’ed as well and I think we are in order.
Thank you very much and welcome, hon Twala. You will probably now have an official right to participate other than the unofficial right that you gave yourself the previous week. You are most welcome to make the necessary contributions that you are expected to make as a member of the committee towards the work that we have in front of us.Hon members, it looks like we really don’t have a problem of attendance and therefore I will then recognise Mr Van Voore to take us forward. Mr Van Voore, you may proceed.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Chairperson, a number of witnesses have been called to testify before the hearings of this committee and those witnesses include the person whom I propose to call as the first witness for today, and that is Mr R Poliah. He is the head of Parliament’s Information, Communications, Technology department. The further witness is the Serjeant-at-arms, Ms R Mohlomi. And then there is the Chief Whip of the Opposition, as well as the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
Insofar as the Chief Whip of the Opposition is concerned, I am informed that the gentleman, Mr Johan Steenhuisen, is apparently not available today. I am not sure if that has been conveyed to the Secretariat, Mr Chairman. I understand that the gentleman is apparently attending the funeral of the late Mr Watty Watson. I am told that insofar as the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party is concerned, there is some logistical issue which might see Ms Dlakude arriving somewhat later this afternoon. I am not sure, Mr Chairman, whether you wish to deal with that now or later.
The[ct3]CHAIRPERSON OF POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile): Mr Van Voore, we are aware of the funeral of the former Member of Parliament, Mr Watson. And we have been informed, of course, that it is happening today in Pretoria and it is understandable that the Chief Whip of the Democratic Alliance has gone to attend that.
The other issue, of course, is the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party. We also got information that she is arriving later this afternoon at around 16:00 and will be around the precinct at about 17:00. We will, of course, try to give them the opportunity to appear.
If the Chief Whip of the DA, as well, will be on the parliamentary precinct, there is nothing that will stop him from being given the opportunity up to that specific time. I think we will simply watch that space and time, and if he is still available to appear today, then we should give him the opportunity to do so. I am sure members will have no objection to that, because it is them who wanted these two hon members to come and assist them with the kind of evidence that they wanted on specific issues. Therefore, it shouldn’t be a problem if they are available. From the Chair I can indicate that we will wait for them, even if it has to be at 20:00 tonight, to get that evidence from them. It shouldn’t be a problem. I think that should be the way.
Before we finish with the witnesses that we have, I think we would have agreed on the time of suspensions to wait for these specific members and probably would have had adequate information about their availability today and we will make those specific announcements as we proceed. You may proceed.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you, Mr Chairman. Then there are two further witnesses that the committee wished to give evidence. The first is Minister Mahlobo, the Minister of State Security; and the next is Minister Cwele, now the Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services. I am informed that those two Ministers are abroad until 26 October – Minister Mahlobo, that is; and Minister Cwele until 28 October. I am not sure, Mr Chairman, if you and your committee wish to deal with it at this time. I would much rather call the two officials who are here and who are standing ready to give evidence; and the committee can then at an appropriate time deal with the balance of the issues.
The[ct4]CHAIRPERSON OF POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile): Yes, that is correct. I think we may then proceed with the witnesses who are available and we will deal with that at the end.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you, Mr Chairman, there was, during the leading of the evidence of Mr Xaso, an issue raised that it might be that Parliament’s equipment – the “to talk” button, for example – microphone equipment and other electronic equipment at the desk or chair of each Member of Parliament in the National Assembly might not have been working properly, either for all of the session on 21 August 2014, or, certainly, for that part of the session at which various members wanted to intervene, but suggested that there was an issue with the equipment.
Mr Chairman, you and the members of your committee will then recall that there was then, during the engagement of the committee with Mr Xaso of some four hours and 20 minutes, various questions and propositions put to Mr Xaso as to the state of the equipment on the day – whether or not the equipment had been checked. There was a question asked as to whether audits are carried out; and, if so, with what regularity or frequency those audits are carried out. Arising from that the committee took the view that it would be appropriate for Mr Ravi Poliah, who is the head of Parliament’s Information, Communication and Technology Division, to come and give evidence. Mr Poliah is available and standing ready to do so. I propose that we invite Mr Poliah into this venue. And whilst we do that, if we may distribute a bundle of documents, which Mr Poliah will also refer to.
The[ct5]CHAIRPERSON OF POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr L B Mashile): Okay, agreed. Let’s have the documents and let the witness come in as well.
Hon members, Rule 138(a) of the Assembly Rules require me – prior to the witness giving evidence – to inform him as follows. I quote:
Please be informed that by law you are required to answer fully and satisfactory all the questions lawfully put to you, or to produce any document that you are required to produce in connection with the subject matter of the enquiry. Notwithstanding that the answer or document could incriminate you or expose you to criminal or civil proceedings or damages, you are however protected in that the evidence given under oath or affirmation before a House or committee may not be used against you in any court or place outside Parliament, except in criminal proceedings concerning a charge of perjury or a charge relating to the evidence or documents required in these proceedings.
Close quote. Do you have any objection to take the oath or affirmation?
Can we get the thing there to work? Just relax. The engineers will sort it out for him. We have got one mic that is actually disturbing all other mics not to function. [Interjections.]
Yes, we are aware; that’s why we want to deal with it, so that one can work. I’m not sure whether they took for granted that the witness is going to sit here. I’m not sure.
Hon members, can we really try to give the technicians just to deal with the mics? Can we then suspend the hearing for some five to 10 minutes? Then we will be informed. I think we must just go to the rooms that side so that when they have done with it, we can quickly come back.
I think the witness, up to now, has not yet taken the oath ... and then we will just come and complete it immediately. He is free to do everything else. Just for 10 minutes only, hon members, but if they finish before that then we will reconvene immediately. Thank you very much.
The hearing suspended for 10 minutes at 10:30.
Hearing resumed at 11:11
The[nm6] CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you, hon members. I think we just need to apologise to all of you for this untimely hiccup. Of course, hon members, we all know that, with electronic equipment, it’s not easy to guarantee their functionality at all times. Sometimes even when it collapses, it does not even give an indication or make an application to anybody, especially... Some of you, you will remember, some of your cellphones, while you are engaging in some important conversation, then it just gets stuck and ceases to function, irrespective of how much you have paid for it.
So, electronic equipment sometimes... and computers and whatever, they can embarrass you sometimes. But, I’m happy that we have capable men and women around Parliament who have been able in a short space of time to actually make sure that we are able to proceed with the hearing.
Hon members, when the equipment broke down, I was saying, Rule 138 of the Assembly Rules requires me, prior to a witness giving evidence, to inform such witness as follows: “Please be informed that, by law, you are required to answer fully and satisfactorily all the questions lawfully put to you or to produce any document that you are required to produce in connection with the subject matter of the inquiry, notwithstanding that the answer or the document could incriminate you, or expose you to criminal or civil proceedings or damages. You are, however, protected in that the evidence given under oath or affirmation before a House or a committee may not be used against you in any court or place outside Parliament, except in criminal proceedings concerning a charge of perjury or a charge relating to the evidence or documents required in these proceedings.”
Now, I want to ask whether you have any objection to taking the oath or making the affirmation.
Mr[nm7] R POLIAH: I have no objection, Chairperson.
The[nm8] CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Do you want to take an oath or make an affirmation?
Mr[nm9] R POLIAH: An oath, Chairperson.
The[nm10] CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): You therefore have to say to us, “I swear that the testimony or evidence I am going to give is the truth and only the truth, so help me God.”
Mr R POLIAH: I swear that the testimony or evidence I am going to give is the truth and only the truth, so help me God.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you very much. Mr Van Voore, you may proceed.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Poliah, after what I am sure is little more than an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, I would now like to proceed with your evidence.
If you can please just state your full names?
Mr[nm11] R POLIAH: My name is Runganathan Poliah. Everyone commonly calls me “Ravi”.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you. Just to confirm, in what capacity are you employed at Parliament?
Mr[nm12] R POLIAH: I am the ICT section manager for Parliament.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): And for how long have you been the ICT section manager?
Mr R POLIAH: For about 10 years.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Just in broad strokes for now... I’m interested in more of the architecture... we will drill into the detail in almost granular fashion a bit later. But for now, I am interested in broad strokes. Will you just describe your duties and responsibilities?
Mr R POLIAH: I manage a team of individuals that is responsible for technical maintenance and support of our IT and audio and video infrastructure equipment and systems. I manage a few units, and have both technical and managerial staff that is responsible for the day-to-day maintenance and support of such systems.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Hon Filtane, if it’s about the volume, I’ve already made a request for them to up the volume. You can continue if it’s not about the volume of the mic.
Mr[nm13] M L W FILTANE: Thanks for the opportunity, Chair. Is it possible for that to be linked to these hearing devices because my fear is that even if the volume is upped... but we can try; I’m not standing against that, Chair. I’m considerate enough. But is it possible for that to be linked, because this helps us to hear him clearly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS, PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Oaky, I think we will make that request that the technicians also try and make sure that it is linked to the handsets on the desks. Thank you very much. You may proceed.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you, Mr Poliah. If you can just describe again, speaking a bit more loudly, I suppose, in braod strokes, your duties and responsibilities.
Mr[nm14] R POLIAH: My primary responsibility is to manage a team of managers and technicians that are responsible for technical maintenance and support of all our IT – that is, our information and technology systems – as well as our audio and video broadcast infrastructure and systems at Parliament.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you. Roughly how many persons are there in your team?
Mr[nm15] R POLIAH: The entire team of both IT and audio and video staffs is about 65 staff.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): I now want to turn to specifically the testing of equipment as that equipment exists in the National Assembly. Again, in broad strokes, if you can just explain to the committee what the testing routine is, or what those routines are, in broad and general terms.
Mr[nm16] R POLIAH: I think it is important to understand that the National Assembly systems consist of a number of subsystems that are integrated to form a single Chamber system.
So let me begin with the audio system, which is a system I am sure most of the members are familiar with. It allows the members to speak and to be heard in the Chamber. There are interpretation systems which allow members to speak in the language of their choice, and then allows parliamentary staff to interpret so that they can be heard.
We have a voting system that allows members to vote.
We have a request-to-talk system – as most members are aware – which we use primarily during the Question and answering period.
We have an IT system which consists of an information system that allows members to access documents in the Chamber.
We have a request for service system which allows members to request anything from the service officers on duty.
There are a number of back-up and redundant systems that we have.
The INITIATOR (Mr R van Voore): Thank you, Mr Poliah. In relation to testing routines, how regularly and, I suppose as we get to in a bit more detail later, how often are tests conducted on the various systems as described by you?
Mr[nm17] R POLIAH: In the National Assembly Chamber we have two testing regimes. Every week on a Monday, we have what we call a complete final comprehensive test, which consists of a very detailed testing of not only each and every component... the back-end system, the networks, each microphone, every station on every desk, every button that is required, including the computer system. We test... as well as the speakers. We have quite a few speakers in the Chamber. Each one of them is tested individually using test equipment. We check for calibration. So it is a very involved testing procedure. And that is just in the Chamber.